Let's talk about the C8 vs the GT500

[Stuntman]

Official specs:
https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/camaro-zl1/2019.tab1.html

The 3944 is the regular ZL1 with auto
4100 is the vert

3820 for the ZL1 1LE which I am assuming is manual. I saw 3830 listed somewhere as well. The regular ZL1 auto adds 60 pounds, so I think that's a fair assesment of additional weight for the 1LE as well.

DCTs are heavier than Autos. The GT500 has huge brakes that weigh more than the Camaros brakes. It also has more power than a ZR1 that's 300lbs heavier than the base C7.

425lbs heavier than a GT350 sounds in line with the weight gains from cooling and a 755hp+ supercharged engine when you take into account the bigger brakes and heavier DCT (125lbs between them based off the difference from the C7 to ZR1). Then again, if the ZR1 had iron rotors like the GT500, it would be more than 300lbs heavier.

I guarantee a ZL1 will weigh more than 3,944 with a DCT, the ZR1s supercharger and required cooling for an additional 100hp, and larger brakes needed to slow it down.

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[4V Mayhem]

This thread has a lot to digest. I'm disappointed. What are my chances of getting a GT500? 0%. What are my chances of getting a C8? 100%. GM put the C8 out there at a remarkable MSRP and added the Z51 to every trim as an option. You'll pay from $65,000 to $77,000 for just the trim and the Z51. And anyone can order one. Ford started the GT500 sky high for just the low model. And what are my chances of getting one at MSRP or at all? The Chevy guys get incredible performance cars at low costs. But Ford does everything they can to keep up all in the GT or some version of the GT. And once you load up a GT you are only a few thousand bucks shy of a C8. And the C8 is going to outperform even the GT500 in some areas from what I read. Is Ford out of touch?

 

[Stuntman]

C8's can be over $90,000 from a 3LT, Z51 and a few carbon options.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

DCTs are heavier than Autos. The GT500 has huge brakes that weigh more than the Camaros brakes. It also has more power than a ZR1 that's 300lbs heavier than the base C7.

425lbs heavier than a GT350 sounds in line with the weight gains from cooling and a 755hp+ supercharged engine when you take into account the bigger brakes and heavier DCT (125lbs between them based off the difference from the C7 to ZR1). Then again, if the ZR1 had iron rotors like the GT500, it would be more than 300lbs heavier.

I guarantee a ZL1 will weigh more than 3,944 with a DCT, the ZR1s supercharger and required cooling for an additional 100hp, and larger brakes needed to slow it down.

Yep, agreed on all points. It weighs more due to all the additional power and equipment. But... the ZL1 1LE doesnt have all that additional stuff and my point was that the GT500 may not end up being faster around the road course just because it adds all that. It might be, but I dont think it's going to get its ass handed to it like most people seem to think. It's very heavy and at some point additional power at the expense of weight really has diminishing returns.

I'd rather have something a little lighter weight, but then again I dont care for drag racing. It's hard to be the king of both which is what I think most people here assume it's going to be.

 

[millhouse]

Yep, agreed on all points. It weighs more due to all the additional power and equipment. But... the ZL1 1LE doesnt have all that additional stuff and my point was that the GT500 may not end up being faster around the road course just because it adds all that. It might be, but I dont think it's going to get its ass handed to it like most people seem to think. It's very heavy and at some point additional power at the expense of weight really has diminishing returns.

I'd rather have something a little lighter weight, but then again I dont care for drag racing. It's hard to be the king of both which is what I think most people here assume it's going to be.

The zl1 1le also made major sacrifices to ride quality by using lightweight racing dampers and solid bushings. Both gt500 variants don’t make these compromises. If it ends up being quicker around the track than the 1le (which it should), kudos to Ford.

If anyone bothered to look at any of the information available they would realize the gt500 carbon is said to drive like a much, much lighter vehicle.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

The zl1 1le also made major sacrifices to ride quality by using lightweight racing dampers and solid bushings. Both gt500 variants don’t make these compromises. If it ends up being quicker around the track than the 1le (which it should), kudos to Ford.

If anyone bothered to look at any of the information available they would realize the gt500 carbon is said to drive like a much, much lighter vehicle.

If you go back to the original statement where you called me ignorant, you'll see that I already mentioned the ride quality being a factor that would be called out. Reaching the pinnacle of performance for a chassis is going to require sacrifices.

 

[Stuntman]

Yep, agreed on all points. It weighs more due to all the additional power and equipment. But... the ZL1 1LE doesnt have all that additional stuff and my point was that the GT500 may not end up being faster around the road course just because it adds all that. It might be, but I dont think it's going to get its ass handed to it like most people seem to think. It's very heavy and at some point additional power at the expense of weight really has diminishing returns.

I'd rather have something a little lighter weight, but then again I dont care for drag racing. It's hard to be the king of both which is what I think most people here assume it's going to be.

If the ZL1 1LE had a DCT, 755hp+ (needs additional cooling), heavy magneride suspension, and larger brakes to slow down the extra weight, it probably wouldn't be more than 100lba lighter than the GT500. Likewise, if the GT500 only had 650hp, it wouldn't need anywhere near as much cooling (and would be lighter), it probably could get away with the lighter GT350 brakes, and I'd it had a lighter manual transmission and lighter DSSV coilovers like the 1LE, it would probably be well under 4,000lbs.

The 1LE is a hardcore track car. So was the Z28. The GT350R did everything better than the Z28 (especiall ride quality on the street). I'd bet the GT500 track version will also do everything better than the 1LE.

 

[millhouse]

If you go back to the original statement where you called me ignorant, you'll see that I already mentioned the ride quality being a factor that would be called out. Reaching the pinnacle of performance for a chassis is going to require sacrifices.

That would mean then if the GT500 eclipses the ZL1 1Le's performance, and does so without sacrificing ride quality...that would make the camaros chassis inferior no? Your words, not mine.

"Pinnacle: the highest or culminating point, as of success, power, fame, etc.:"

 

[Biggus Dickus]

This thread has a lot to digest. I'm disappointed. What are my chances of getting a GT500? 0%. What are my chances of getting a C8? 100%. GM put the C8 out there at a remarkable MSRP and added the Z51 to every trim as an option. You'll pay from $65,000 to $77,000 for just the trim and the Z51. And anyone can order one. Ford started the GT500 sky high for just the low model. And what are my chances of getting one at MSRP or at all? The Chevy guys get incredible performance cars at low costs. But Ford does everything they can to keep up all in the GT or some version of the GT. And once you load up a GT you are only a few thousand bucks shy of a C8. And the C8 is going to outperform even the GT500 in some areas from what I read. Is Ford out of touch?

GM does a better job of delivering Power to the People. Too bad the Camaro styling is beyond my tolerance for ugliness. A C8 1LZ ZO6 when it comes out will probably be less than a GT500. And for that matter, a C7 ZO6 is less than a GT500 and probably will outperform it all areas.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

That would mean then if the GT500 eclipses the ZL1 1Le's performance, and does so without sacrificing ride quality...that would make the camaros chassis inferior no? Your words, not mine.

"Pinnacle: the highest or culminating point, as of success, power, fame, etc.:"

No, that's not what I said.

Reaching the pinnacle of a chassis requires sacrifices. That's what I said. You and I both know that the GT500 would likely perform better with a stiffer more race ready suspension that was lighter weight. It's perfectly fine that they chose magneride and decided to go with the brute force more power method. The handling may suffer though. That is a lot of weight to be plugging around turns. It's a sacrifice that was made for daily livability with the car. Ok fine.

Similarly, both would be faster with less NVH, seats, etc.

Neither are at the absolute maximum of performance possible. We all know that.

It's a matter of choices and priorities. I'm saying that despite the power advantages, it may not end up being faster on a road course. Or maybe it will be. We dont know.

Would the Camaro be faster with the ZR1 engine? Maybe... who knows. Depends on what they would have to add to it and whether it's worth it.

You seem pissed because I'm saying it may not be faster than a ZL1 1LE. It's just a fact... it may not be on a road course. I'm pointing out that pretty much anytime a Camaro beats a Mustang immediately the Mustang community goes to excuse mode. Or exercises the "it's more special" argument.

I really don't care that much either way as I like both Mustangs and Camaros. I guess I'd just rather see some more focus on track performance and light weighting than dumping more and more power that might not even be useful on a vast majority of tracks.

 

[ALUSA]

What is hard to believe is that the GT500 pulling 1.5 G cornering with 305’s or 315’s with 4200+ lbs weight. Those tires must have gorilla glue compound to stick like a glue.

 

[millhouse]

No, that's not what I said.

Reaching the pinnacle of a chassis requires sacrifices. That's what I said. You and I both know that the GT500 would likely perform better with a stiffer more race ready suspension that was lighter weight. It's perfectly fine that they chose magneride and decided to go with the brute force more power method. The handling may suffer though. That is a lot of weight to be plugging around turns. It's a sacrifice that was made for daily livability with the car. Ok fine.

Similarly, both would be faster with less NVH, seats, etc.

Neither are at the absolute maximum of performance possible. We all know that.

It's a matter of choices and priorities. I'm saying that despite the power advantages, it may not end up being faster on a road course. Or maybe it will be. We dont know.

Would the Camaro be faster with the ZR1 engine? Maybe... who knows. Depends on what they would have to add to it and whether it's worth it.

You seem pissed because I'm saying it may not be faster than a ZL1 1LE. It's just a fact... it may not be on a road course. I'm pointing out that pretty much anytime a Camaro beats a Mustang immediately the Mustang community goes to excuse mode. Or exercises the "it's more special" argument.

I really don't care that much either way as I like both Mustangs and Camaros. I guess I'd just rather see some more focus on track performance and light weighting than dumping more and more power that might not even be useful on a vast majority of tracks.

Again, you fail to answer the question. Pinnacle means there is no where left to go but down. Again, these are your words not mine.

If the Gt350 is faster around the track than the zl1 1le that (by your words) is as the pinnacle of its chassis, and is able to do so without sacrificing comfort, would that not make it a more capable chassis considering it would be faster had it sacrificed comfort?

 

[DekiDoo]

What is hard to believe is that the GT500 pulling 1.5 G cornering with 305’s or 315’s with 4200+ lbs weight. Those tires must have gorilla glue compound to stick like a glue.

Well that's because it doesn't, I think you mentioned it earlier. It may pull a 1.5 peak, but it's not sustained 1.5, otherwise the 350R would have already done it, as it has the same size tires and 3 hookers worth less weight.

 

[DekiDoo]

Again, you fail to answer the question. Pinnacle means there is no where left to go but down. Again, these are your words not mine.

If the Gt350 is faster around the track than the zl1 1le that (by your words) is as the pinnacle of its chassis, and is able to do so without sacrificing comfort, would that not make it a more capable chassis considering it would be faster had it sacrificed comfort?

But the gt350r is significantly slower than a ZL1 1le around a track.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

Again, you fail to answer the question. Pinnacle means there is no where left to go but down. Again, these are your words not mine.

If the Gt350 is faster around the track than the zl1 1le that (by your words) is as the pinnacle of its chassis, and is able to do so without sacrificing comfort, would that not make it a more capable chassis considering it would be faster had it sacrificed comfort?

Dude... I never said it was the pinnacle of the chassis. I just got done explaining that in a long ass post response to you. For God's sake man.

I just explained that to get to the pinnacle it's all about making sacrifices. That is a general statement that is irrefutable. There are additional sacrifices to be made in both the ZL1 1LE and the GT500 to make them faster.

The GT500 will be more compliant on the street than the ZL1 1LE. It would likely be faster if it wasnt so compliant. Why is this so difficult to understand?

I'm not even sure what you are attempting to argue here. Do you not agree that is possible for the ZL1 1LE to be just as fast as the GT500 on a road course? Could the GT500 not be faster if it cut some unnecessary weight?

The Camaro and Mustang are pretty similar cars with similar lap times when similarly equipped. In this case the extra power also mean extra weight though.

Isnt this kinda similar to the GT350R and the regular ZL1 having similar times despite the large horsepower advantage of the ZL1? Its heavier. This could end up working out the same way. If you dont understand what I'm saying then I dont know how else to say it.

Neither chassis is vastly superior to the other. They are both quality starting points for a road course monster at a good price point.

I'm sorry you hate Camaros so much, but they are great performance cars.

Will be interesting to see how much weight the GT500 can cut with the track pack. I hope it would be a lot.

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