Wheel STIFFNESS matters! -We test Carbon Revolution's Carbon Fiber GT350R wheels vs AL wheels.

[BillyJRacing]

This is the difference between a mustang forum which consists of more street smart people with above average practical intelligence than a porsche gt forum which is usually filled with (xxxx insert your adjectives of choice here xxxx).

I have “cheap” made in taiwan aftermarket wheels from signature wheels that weigh about 1lb more than the R wheels and I couldnt have been happier with them. My cost was LESS THAN 1/3 or the cost of these wheels.

Good luck selling these wheels to mustang owners

I'm sorry you missed the point of the article - the knowledge of how stiffness, rotational inertia, strength, and weight affect all aspects of performance for ALL wheels.

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[UnhandledException]

I'm sorry you missed the point of the article - the knowledge of how stiffness, rotational inertia, strength, and weight affect all aspects of performance for ALL wheels.

I didnt. Its just not worth it. The incremental improvement between a 4k aftermarket forged wheels vs 12k CF wheels are just not worth for a 60k-80k car. I would argue even for a 140k GT3 its not. These are just wheels, they can be destroyed so easily. I along with 99% of the forum will never see that tiny bit of incremental value add materialize in any way. We are not Randy Pobst neither do we trailer our selection of 3 super cars to VIR for a track day every week and drive at 9/10ths. Even what I paid for my aftermarket wheels is too much considering I drive 1500 miles/month with them.

 

[Zitrosounds]

This is the difference between a mustang forum which consists of more street smart people with above average practical intelligence than a porsche gt forum which is usually filled with (xxxx insert your adjectives of choice here xxxx).

I have “cheap” made in taiwan aftermarket wheels from signature wheels that weigh about 1lb more than the R wheels and I couldnt have been happier with them. My cost was LESS THAN 1/3 or the cost of these wheels.

Good luck selling these wheels to mustang owners

How did this become a sales thread? JEEZ LOUISE!!!! You enjoy your "cheap" made in Taiwan wheels that weigh 1lb more the the CF R wheels. You most definitely missed the scope of the topic. By the way, I would not call Signature wheels cheap. I would say they are a very good wheel and close in terms of weight. In terms of performance, gauging from the referenced articles in this thread and from my own experience, the CR wheels are superior. I would love to do my own independent tests to validate my hypothesis.

 

[BillyJRacing]

I didnt. Its just not worth it. The incremental improvement between a 4k aftermarket forged wheels vs 12k CF wheels are just not worth for a 60k-80k car. I would argue even for a 140k GT3 its not. These are just wheels, they can be destroyed so easily. I along with 99% of the forum will never see that tiny bit of incremental value add materialize in any way. We are not Randy Pobst neither do we trailer our selection of 3 super cars to VIR for a track day every week and drive at 9/10ths. Even what I paid for my aftermarket wheels is too much considering I drive 1500 miles/month with them.

It seems like you did and based off of these comments.

The concepts and knowledge from the article are not just carbon vs aluminum, they can be applied when looking at one aluminum wheel compared to another aluminum wheel.

I can assure you anyone who drove the same size carbon vs aluminum wheels (on the same tires) back to back on the STREET, would feel a difference. It's really hard to believe until you try it yourself.

In regards to the misconception of carbon wheels being 'easily destroyed', please read pages 5 & 8 about strength and durability. (they are far stronger and more durable than aluminum).

 

[oldbmwfan]

I didnt. Its just not worth it. The incremental improvement between a 4k aftermarket forged wheels vs 12k CF wheels are just not worth for a 60k-80k car. I would argue even for a 140k GT3 its not. These are just wheels, they can be destroyed so easily. I along with 99% of the forum will never see that tiny bit of incremental value add materialize in any way. We are not Randy Pobst neither do we trailer our selection of 3 super cars to VIR for a track day every week and drive at 9/10ths. Even what I paid for my aftermarket wheels is too much considering I drive 1500 miles/month with them.

Just because you are not the target market does not mean the CF wheels are not, in fact, better. As for "good luck selling them to Mustang owners," Ford didn't seem to have any trouble unloading 2500 sets to R owners ...

 

[FogcitySF]

Really puzzled by the hostility towards the article and its contents. I found it to be really interesting and corroborated another article I remember reading by ADVAN/RAYS on how lighter wheels (vs stronger wheels) aren't necessarily faster on a track (which was also backed up by test data/lap times).

For all the carbo-skeptics does it really make logical sense that Ford would go out of its way to get special wheels produced at 20% of the cost of the R for a marketing gimmick for a car to achieve a certain price point (when that other $12k may have been used for other performance enhancing measures)? C'mon. We all know the results of the testing (the MT article on rotational inertia and acceleration) of carbo vs non carbo wheels, we know the experience in motorcycling as well as bicycling of the numerous benefits of using CF as a material (including when you hit rough roads/bumps and associated ride compliance), as well as the testing done by a professional race driver in this test, how race teams would love to get hands on them (just as they have in cycling), how some supercars have them and how they will be more prevalent in the future with performance cars as unit costs come down.

I get those who believe the cost may not outweigh the benefit in their own view (and many of the benefits probably not fully exploitable by 90% of the drivers on this forum), but don't make the fact that you won't spend money on CF wheels some sort of repudiation of the obviously proven benefits of CF wheels--doing so is kind of preposterous and comes off as sour grapes.

Anyway BillyJ, thanks for sharing.

 

[Colorancher]

I just wish there were options for CF wheels that looked better. I'm guessing it is more difficult to make less bulky looking CF wheels. I understand that the aesthetics of the R wheels appeal to many but, for me, they don't nearly match the appeal of aftermarket options from Forgeline, Signature and others. I even prefer the look of the stock GT350 wheels to the R wheels. The stiffness advantage sounds impressive. I may one of the few who will sacrifice possible minute occasional track gains for the improved aesthetics that I live with every day.

Does anyone know if the stiffness comes mainly from the barrel? If so, the Forgeline hybrids (CF/aluminum) may offer the best of both worlds. Stiffness and looks.

 

[oldbmwfan]

I just wish there were options for CF wheels that looked better. I'm guessing it is more difficult to make less bulky looking CF wheels. I understand that the aesthetics of the R wheels appeal to many but, for me, they don't nearly match the appeal of aftermarket options from Forgeline, Signature and others. I even prefer the look of the stock GT350 wheels to the R wheels. The stiffness advantage sounds impressive. I may one of the few who will sacrifice possible minute occasional track gains for the improved aesthetics that I live with every day.

Does anyone know if the stiffness comes mainly from the barrel? If so, the Forgeline hybrids (CF/aluminum) may offer the best of both worlds. Stiffness and looks.

Two things to know for people considering this route:
1) Forgeline stopped accepting new orders for their CF barrel wheels on 8/20/18, because their composite manufacturer got acquired and stopped supporting the program (hoping to be back online with a new supplier within a year)
2) They are even more expensive than the R wheels at $4k+ per wheel

 

[BillyJRacing]

Does anyone know if the stiffness comes mainly from the barrel? If so, the Forgeline hybrids (CF/aluminum) may offer the best of both worlds. Stiffness and looks.

A lot of stiffness comes from the barrel since most of the load is focused on the inner barrel. Forgeline's hybrid CF/AL wheel should be able to deliver far greater stiffness for a given weight than their 2-3pc aluminum wheels with aluminum barrels. Having said that, I need to ask Forgeline how their 2-3pc bolted together wheels compare in stiffness to their forged monoblock wheels and if they can share any information on the stiffness of their hybrid wheel vs the monoblock forged wheel.

The wheel spokes play an important role in stiffness and camber gain as well as the interface from the spokes to the barrel. If you have a stiff carbon barrel and flimsy 'stylized' spokes, you can introduce a lot of flex and camber compliance from the spokes. If you go with a proven design that's not too light (and is stiff) then the only question is the flex in the interface between the carbon barrel and the aluminum spokes and how those fasteners interact and affect stiffness of the entire wheel.

Overall, the hybrid wheel uses a lot of heavy (even if they're titanium) fasteners, but it's a FAR better design than the hybrid Dymag wheels that had significant engineering flaws. The question becomes, does a quality designed (and heavier) forged spokes from Forgeline result in greater stiffness than their motorsports monoblock wheels? If so, then indeed the hybrid design should improve barrel stiffness, weight, and rotational inertia, and a step closer to a full carbon wheel. That info is yet to be seen.

However, the hybrid design cannot match the stiffness and weight of a full carbon wheel like Carbon Revolutions. Nor can it match the stiffness of a continuous carbon strand that goes through the entire barrel and up into the spokes. Maybe hybrid wheels can get closer, maybe they have yet to be seen problems, time will tell. Either way, it's great to see a company like Forgeline push the envelope with new technologies.

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Whether you've read the article or not, (especially if you haven't) -Listen in where I join The Exotic Car Hour podcast to discuss the technical aspects from the MotoIQ article on the importance stiffness plays on ALL wheels, clarify some misconceptions of carbon fiber, and talk about my involvement helping to develop some of Ford's greatest cars like the Ford GT and the GT350/R Mustang:

https://anchor.fm/The_exotic_car_hour

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Click the link above and listen in!

 

[BillyJRacing]

Bump for GT500 relevance. Pretty cool Carbon Revolution wheel timeline:

GT350R - first mass produced production car to use CF wheels
Ford GT - second production car to use CF wheels
Renault Megane RS Trophy-R - set FWD production car record at the Nurburgring Nordschleife
-Ferrari Pista - first Ferrari to use CF wheels (catching on to what Ford already knows).
GT500 Carbon Package - now the 5th car to use CF wheels.

...and more cars will be using them in the future. This is just the start.

 

[nastang87xx]

@BillyJRacing when do you think aftermarket will start catching on? Will some of the "old dogs" get into the game or do you think it'll take some new boys with new age thinking to bring them to the common folk?

 

[BillyJRacing]

@BillyJRacing when do you think aftermarket will start catching on? Will some of the "old dogs" get into the game or do you think it'll take some new boys with new age thinking to bring them to the common folk?

That's a tough question. The barrier to entry is quite high, and current wheel companies have invested in foundaries and machinery designed to produce Al wheels. Building carbon wheels require completely different equipment.

You may see new players or current composite companies enter the market as Carbon Revolution paves the way. There's a lot of development in the composite industry that is driving production prices down, the use of renewable, more environmentally friendly, and less expensive fibers will make composites far more common in the world. Not just wheels, or cars.

There will always be Al wheels in production and aftermarket. As more CF wheels enter both, and as prices come down, you'll start to see CF wheels more commonplace because of their advantages from performance, fuel economy, noise reduction, etc... They perform better on almost every front.

I think we are still years away from seeing CF wheels commonplace in the aftermarket.

 

[MikeR397]

Bump for GT500 relevance. Pretty cool Carbon Revolution wheel timeline:

GT350R - first mass produced production car to use CF wheels
Ford GT - second production car to use CF wheels
Renault Megane RS Trophy-R - set FWD production car record at the Nurburgring Nordschleife
-Ferrari Pista - first Ferrari to use CF wheels (catching on to what Ford already knows).
GT500 Carbon Package - now the 5th car to use CF wheels.

...and more cars will be using them in the future. This is just the start.

Does jag f type have carbon wheels?

 

[MNGT350]

Is it mostly about the tires? 2019 GT350 0-60 with Cup2 tires essentially the same as 350R.



I was looking into upgrading wheels, after watching this not so sure it matters all that much.

 

[BillyJRacing]

Does jag f type have carbon wheels?

Nope. Just carbon inserts in the spokes of aluminum wheels.

Is it mostly about the tires? 2019 GT350 0-60 with Cup2 tires essentially the same as 350R.

I was looking into upgrading wheels, after watching this not so sure it matters all that much.

It's obvious he didn't read my MotoIQ article on Carbon Revolution wheels, and I urge you to do the same.

While he is correct about the GT350R's lighter and shorter tire, that does change the effective gear ratio and improve acceleration, he only focuses on analyzing acceleration of CF wheels and does not take into account the many other advantages from the stiffness of the wheel, the effect on cornering, steering feel, noise reduction, etc... CF wheels have a SIGNIFICANT reduction in rotational inertia over an aluminum wheel of similar weight. It's still noticeable even when both wheels have identical tires. But as mentioned in the MotoIQ article, the lightweight wheel flexes a lot, more camber, has worse steering feel and response, and has more rotational inertia.

For drag racing (not that you want to drag race on Cup 2s if that's your cup of tea), the 2019 GT350's Cup 2 is different from the GT350R Cup 2 (that is not particularly good for drag racing). I don't do the drag racing tests of these cars but it's possible the larger diameter or compound of the 2019 GT350's Cup 2 hooks better than the GT350 R's more aggressive Cup 2.

On a road course, the carbon wheels alone are worth about 1 second over an aluminum wheel on most tracks, and the difference in rotational inertia, steering feel, communication through the wheel (due to the stiffer and lower-inertia CF wheel) can be felt by most car enthusiasts.

-The 2019 GT350 Cup2 tire is not as fast as the GT350R's Cup2
-If you put a GT350R's Cup2 and an equivalently light and wide Al wheel on a GT350, the GT350 would still be seconds slower than an R.
-If you put the same aero, tires, and equivalently light Al wheel on a GT350, it would still be over a second slower than an R (~1 second from the CF wheel, and some time in suspension and magneride damping programming). It would also not feel anywhere near as nimble due to the lack of stiffness in the wheel and reduced rotational inertia. All of this comes together to make the GT350R so intangibly amazing.

**This should not be viewed as an attack if you own a GT350. They are rare and amazing cars in their own right.


In regards to the video:

You can't blame Ford for the journalism accuracy from a magazine. I don't believe Ford has ever quoted wheel & tire weight in their own press release. Ford provides the press material and quite often magazines twist and spin the information in attempt to make it their own, far enough to be inaccurate. They also do their own (often flawed testing).

In regards to C&D's numbers:

-were they brand new tires that were weighed?
-C&D claimed 15lbs lighter for the Front carbon wheel & tire = 30lbs lighter on front axle
-C&D claimed 14lbs lighter for the Rear carbon wheel & tire = 28lbs lighter on rear axle
=58lbs of wheel & tire reduction

-The 295/35-19 PSS weighs 29 lbs
-The 305/30-19 Cup2 weighs 26lbs = 3lbs lighter = 6lbs total
-The 305/35-19 PSS weighs 30lbs
-The 315/30-19 Cup2 weighs 28lbs = 2lbs lighter = 4lbs total
= = The GT350R's Cup 2s total 10lbs lighter from the 58lb total of C&D's measurement.

Even if C&D's measurement was accurate (unlikely), the wheels account for 48lbs of unsprung weight reduction while the tires only account for 10lbs (which you called "significantly lighter"). Keep in mind a CF wheel has it's mass more centralized in the hub than an aluminum wheel of equivalent weight - the Carbon barrel is SIGNIFICANTLY lighter than the barrel of an aluminum wheel. It's pretty impressive when you pick up a bare carbon wheel vs a bare aluminum wheel.

It's pretty impressive when you pick up a bare carbon wheel vs a bare aluminum wheel.

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