GT350R - Aftermerket Wheel Lug Nut Solution

[Epiphany]

I don't think that Tom, not for a minute. I can see that you want to do this properly and I appreciate that.

It's hard to reach a consensus with variables involved. Using ARP or factory lug studs? Has the torque wrench being used been recently calibrated?

The optimum solution would be to contact a fastener testing service and supply them with some factory fasteners and their respective torque figures from Ford and then supply them with the hardware you'd like to use to achieve proper preload. You'd also want a dry and lubricated figure. Not inexpensive but definitely as accurate as it gets.

And for the record Tom, my involvement with these nuts was strictly CAD related. George did some prototype work. I dimensioned what George did and created some CAD files. That was early on. After that it was all T.

If the lugs are not backing off, you're fine.

Not meant to be taken out of context but I'd be very wary of a recommendation such as that. You may not suffer a fatigue related failure from undertorquing if a fastener isn't loose but it isn't accurate in terms of yield. It would certainly help if ARP was more forthcoming about suppyling friction coefficients, etc, in the case of using their product.

Sponsored

 

[oldbmwfan]

Not meant to be taken out of context but I'd be very wary of a recommendation such as that. You may not suffer a fatigue related failure from undertorquing if a fastener isn't loose but it isn't accurate in terms of yield. It would certainly help if ARP was more forthcoming about suppyling friction coefficients, etc, in the case of using their product.

Absolutely, and the comment was 100% meant in-context. I wouldn't use that method if I thought there was a high risk of being way off the mark. I'd just be willing to bet that without knowing all the variables you listed above, the top-down estimate of "lubed threads reach a given stretch at ~65-75% of the dry torque figure" is probably right, and I'm just thinking of ways to verify that. This is a critical application, but not one where massive precision is needed. Tight enough without over-stretching the threads is just fine.

 

[galaxy]

Trust me, whole heartedly, I don't mean this to be some solid scientific method, but the first few times I torqued mine with the ARP lube, I stopped at a 100 and that shit just did not feel right. That felt waaay too lose to me. It took literally zero effort to reach 100. I did not like it.

 

[JR369]

Trust me, whole heartedly, I don't mean this to be some solid scientific method, but the first few times I torqued mine with the ARP lube, I stopped at a 100 and that shit just did not feel right. That felt waaay too lose to me. It took literally zero effort to reach 100. I did not like it.

Hmmm. your experience gets me leaning toward dry torque to 130 and check, re-torque, check, etc.

 

[Tomster]

I used 120. Drove it around for a bit (and how I didn't get pulled over is beyond me) and then retorqued to 120. Each nut turned a bit until "click". Its a shame I don't have a fastener testing service in my area. I would think that the manufacturer (whoever it was... ZL1, MGW, whoever) would have tested these with stock studs and a thread lube and came to a correct conclusion.

 

[Tomster]

Hmmm. your experience gets me leaning toward dry torque to 130 and check, re-torque, check, etc.

Do not dry torque these lug nuts. Galling is an issue with dissimilar metals. Same as using stainless on regular steel. It will not go well.

 

[JR369]

Do not dry torque these lug nuts. Galling is an issue with dissimilar metals. Same as using stainless on regular steel. It will not go well.

Well shit. Did you put the lube on the threads or just on the surface of the lugnut pitch? Or both?

 

[Tomster]

Well shit. Did you put the lube on the threads or just on the surface of the lugnut pitch? Or both?

lightly lubricate the threads is all that is required. Some lube. More wont hurt except make a mess, but it has to be lubed.

 

[galaxy]

lightly lubricate the threads is all that is required. Some lube. More wont hurt except make a mess, but it has to be lubed.

Same. Just the threads of the studs. I went thin, but completely coated and even. As the nut threads on, it’ll pick up in the threads, spread around evenly, and do what it needs to do.

 

[Epiphany]

Tight enough without over-stretching the threads is just fine.

The issue with this statement is that "tight enough" is too ambiguous. Saying that if they aren't "loose" you're probably fine isn't very accurate at all. And you have no idea about stretch at all with methods such as this.

Just because a nut (in this case) isn't loose doesn't mean that it is ok. Measuring stretch is a bit technical and feel isn't something I'd run with and have any confidence. Thankfully, there are multiple nuts per wheel but that's no excuse. Not attacking but rather staying vigilant about a matter that deserves attention when deviating too far from generally accepted engineering principles.

...the first few times I torqued mine with the ARP lube, I stopped at a 100 and that shit just did not feel right. That felt waaay too lose to me. It took literally zero effort to reach 100. I did not like it.

The sense you had is almost universal when using thread lubricant in that you may not be comfortable with a lower value than stock. With the majority of friction eliminated the resistance you feel at the wrench isn't the most confidence inspiring. As shown in one of the videos I linked, once plastic, you are on your way to failure with continued install/remove cycles. The problem lies in the feel your brain and body are used to. The bulk of that resistance was the friction in the joint from twisting it while elongating it. Minimize it and you are surprised at how light it now feels. You are not alone.

I would think that the manufacturer (whoever it was... ZL1, MGW, whoever) would have tested these with stock studs and a thread lube and came to a correct conclusion.

Again Tom, MGW only whittled up a prototype for fitment - that's it. Manufacturing, including a specific heat treatment, etc, is something handled by another entity entirely.

 

[oldbmwfan]

Maybe I'm being too cavalier, here, but I think the material of the nut is a red herring. The stretch that provides the clamping load is still in the (steel) fastener, and that stretch is a factor of the torque applied to the lug seat. The only difference the Ti could make that would lead to a problem is if, when the stud reaches the correct elongation, the Ti nut is still able to vibrate loose. If the stud is stretched properly and the lug nut is seated on the wheel and not backing out, the clamping load should be correct and job done.

Stud elongation should be a function of torque applied and stud diameter (which is a constant in this case).

If the above is true, then using the same torque one would use for a lubricated stock nut should work. I am probably missing something though.

 

[50 Deep]

So the instructions you sent did not have torque adjustment factors for the various assembly lubricants. I am using ARP. Do you have the torque reduction values? Do you know who is the manufacturer of the studs on the GT350R (or supplier) to ford so as to ascertain preload values?

maybe @Epiphany any has an idea since he is our resident torque value expert.

I tried calling ARP direct, but went to someone's voicemail.

Edited to add: I called again and spoke to someone who told me that he could not give me any figures.

T,

Building of the lug nuts to SAE standards and proper engineering was the focus, and was done flawlessly.

Torque values were left off for this specific reason. Too many variables amongst lubricants used, as well as the materials manufacturers use for the wheel studs. It would take significant testing to hang a hat on any particular anti-seize.

The changes of torque values based on the lubricity of any anti seize is truly something the manufacturer of that lubricant product would know best, and looking to them for the reduction after whatever scientific testing they do is what should be followed. If you can’t get the information requested, then it’s up to you to use your best judgement.

If you look across the market for other titanium or steel lug nut manufacturers (Tikore, Gorilla, etc) you will find they do not provide any torque values for their products. We are on par with the industry standard in that regard.

The question of torque values with titanium has been around for a very long time. As much as I would love to solve those issues, that is a question to be answered by those engineering and designing the lubricants. If that entire industry hasn’t come to a consensus, it is very telling as to the complexity of the question.

Many others have been successfully waking the titanium lug nut path for years, I know you will too.

 

[Tomster]

T,

Building of the lug nuts to SAE standards and proper engineering was the focus, and was done flawlessly.

Torque values were left off for this specific reason. Too many variables amongst lubricants used, as well as the materials manufacturers use for the wheel studs. It would take significant testing to hang a hat on any particular anti-seize.

The changes of torque values based on the lubricity of any anti seize is truly something the manufacturer of that lubricant product would know best, and looking to them for the reduction after whatever scientific testing they do is what should be followed. If you can’t get the information requested, then it’s up to you to use your best judgement.

If you look across the market for other titanium or steel lug nut manufacturers (Tikore, Gorilla, etc) you will find they do not provide any torque values for their products. We are on par with the industry standard in that regard.

The question of torque values with titanium has been around for a very long time. As much as I would love to solve those issues, that is a question to be answered by those engineering and designing the lubricants. If that entire industry hasn’t come to a consensus, it is very telling as to the complexity of the question.

Many others have been successfully waking the titanium lug nut path for years, I know you will too.

Actually, I blame the lawyers for this issue. It comes down to liability and for this reason, nobody wants to touch it.

 

[50 Deep]

We are officially sold out!

Ended up ordering 40 sets total to handle the extra demand and they are all snapped up. Holding onto 1-2 sets personally.

The last batches are being shipped to me this week. Planning to have all orders shipped out this Saturday.

 

[Epiphany]

... then using the same torque one would use for a lubricated stock nut should work. I am probably missing something though.

The nut material would indeed have little impact. It is only the first few threads of the nut doing the bulk of the work anyway. The issue is, as was mentioned are the variables. "Lubricants" can vary wildly. Note what happens when anti-seize is used.




And here's a good one with respect to torque, "an indirect indication of tension." It is tension that causes the bolt to stretch and thus provide clamp force. And the biggest variable is indeed K which is exactly what we've been discussing.

Sponsored