BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[OneFordGT]

Yeah me too ... like said, it's a very hard issue to trouble-shoot. Could be even engines with rod side clearance within spec towards the high end might tick some given the right conditions. I know some engines were reported here to have rod side clearances outside of specs, and it could be they ticked more and louder than engines with rods within spec. There is no "smoking gun" at this point that points to a sure cause.

I still lean towards parts clearance as the cause, and those moving parts are affected by the oil friction level. It doesn't harm anything as Ford says, just makes noised. Rod ends slapping together won't cause any undue wear or long term issues. Cavitation on the other hand can be very damaging to relatively soft journal bearings, and Ford in their SSM about the typewriter tick says the ticking isn't harmful which would again point away from cavitation which can lead to long term bearing erosion (research the subject).

As much as I thought it was oil cavitation now I know it’s not based on what you pointed out in another thread posting of mine. After using Tribotex the bbq tick went away, changed my oil numerous times after that and never had the bbq tick again (knock on wood). I’ve even turned the AC on and gave it slow revs like I would before when it would make the bbq tick and I still have no noises. After Tribotex I’ve switched to PUP 5w30. I think the Tribotex additive did it’s job but that doesn’t explain why it’s still working if it’s a cushioning that’s stops the bbq tick. Like you said it doesn’t seem to be too concerning at this point. If my bbq tick comes back I’ll just treat it again with Tribotex.

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[Condor1970]

As much as I thought it was oil cavitation now I know it’s not based on what you pointed out in another thread posting of mine. After using Tribotex the bbq tick went away, changed my oil numerous times after that and never had the bbq tick again (knock on wood). I’ve even turned the AC on and gave it slow revs like I would before when it would make the bbq tick and I still have no noises. After Tribotex I’ve switched to PUP 5w30. I think the Tribotex additive did it’s job but that doesn’t explain why it’s still working if it’s a cushioning that’s stops the bbq tick. Like you said it doesn’t seem to be too concerning at this point. If my bbq tick comes back I’ll just treat it again with Tribotex.

Since I'm trusting Ford in the belief this is NOT a harmful noise to the engine, that's kind of my mindset as well. Ceratec is pretty affordable and easy to use. Just add as needed. I heard a little ticking with only 50ml earlier, but just got home, and no major tick. I'm just going to add the bare minimum to keep it quiet... whatever "it" is.

 

[stangman638]

Just drive it, mine has a tick after a change and goes away after putting miles on the car -- a non factor man!

 

[Kong76]

True. I brought my ticking 17 GT to the dealer and they think it has to do something with the valve train or timing chain. They already changed the timing chains and tensioners which did not change anything.

Based on my observations I cannot believe it has got anything to do with the valve train. It has to be on the bottom end, maybe excessive rod or crankshaft clearance, as some suggest. It certainly sounds as coming from the bottom of the engine.

My engine does not tick at idle. It does it when cruising with constant speed at 1400-2000 rpm. What makes me think it’s rod/crankshaft related is this:
If you give it just a little bit more throttle (accelerating very slowly), the ticking disappears instantly. Same if you let off the throttle a bit. It’s perfectly reproducible on my daily trip to work. I’m driving with cruise control at 35mph in 4th (MT) and it ticks. Now I approach a small incline and cruise control has to apply some more throttle to hold speed and the ticking is completely gone immediately. After the incline the tick returns.

My theory is that due to excessive clearance the rods clatter in lateral direction. When some lateral force is applied to the crankshaft via the clutch/flywheel, it is pushed every so little in lateral direction so the rods cannot clatter, because they cannot move freely anymore.

I cannot imagine how the instantly disappearing of the tick could be explained if it was valve train related.

Also, an analysis of the oil that was 5000 mls in the engine showed 4mg/kg of lead. This is not very much I’m being told, but I believe lead is in the rod and crankshaft bearings, so another hint here?

Now I’m trying to convince my dealer that he does some investigation in that direction but he insists on concentrating on the valves further.

Tom

Thats funny, I too had my timing chain tensioners replaced and it didn't solve a thing. I also ran a bottle of Ceratec ( one bottle on my 8 qt 16') after an oil change with about 300 miles on change and the ticking stopped. Once I had the oil changed at dealer the ticking came right back but only after 24 hrs. The first day it was quiet as can be I almost got excited.

 

[Hivel]

Today I changed the oil and added 2 bottles of Ceratec. The idle chatter is almost gone. Now my 2018 GT's idle sounds like my 2016 F150 idle. But, the 2000 RPM rattle is still there. I want to say the rattle is quieter; but, it’s too soon.
This engine hasn’t burned any oil. But, I changed the oil every 6-months. About 3000 miles between changes.
Cheers,

 

[Rick B]

I am very curious. Does anyone with a forged lower end have this tick in their engines?

 

[TheLion70x77]

As much as I thought it was oil cavitation now I know it’s not based on what you pointed out in another thread posting of mine. After using Tribotex the bbq tick went away, changed my oil numerous times after that and never had the bbq tick again (knock on wood). I’ve even turned the AC on and gave it slow revs like I would before when it would make the bbq tick and I still have no noises. After Tribotex I’ve switched to PUP 5w30. I think the Tribotex additive did it’s job but that doesn’t explain why it’s still working if it’s a cushioning that’s stops the bbq tick. Like you said it doesn’t seem to be too concerning at this point. If my bbq tick comes back I’ll just treat it again with Tribotex.

Don't forget TriboTEX is ONLY a isDLC coating. It remains AFTER the oil is changed, hence why it continues to work. If you read through my posts, my 2016 PP GT has both the BBQ Tick AND cold start cylinder rattle in the 2,500 rpm range. Scotty's also has both cylinder rattle (aka piston slap) and BBQ tick, but his ticking was far louder than mine. Mine was only really noticeable when starting from a stop next to a sound barrier. I couldn't hear mine when just revving it in neutral like others, but could easily hear it under load.

BTW TriboTEX and PUP is one of the lowest friction combinations you can achieve. GTL's are extremely robust base stock that rivals even mPAO's in my research findings (they are competing against mPAO's in NASCAR flat tappet race formulas and the 2018 manufacturers title went to Ford running a Pure Plus based race blend, same base oil that's in off-the-shelf pup, but different additives for flat tappet applications and obviously no detergents as it's a race car).

PUP also uses MoDTC which works extremely well with hydrogenated DLC coatings. That's why so man oil suppliers are now starting to use MoDTC in their oil formulas, as more and more OE parts are coming with DLC coatings from the factory. MoDTC lowers both friction and wear on DLC coated parts. Weather the DLC coating is In-Situ like TriboTEX or Vapor Deposited from the factory during part manufacture is irrelevant, it works the same. All hydrogenated DLC coats show significant benefits and maximum performance with MoDTC in the base oil.

I've achieve better fuel economy on PUP 5W-30 than I did with MC 5W-20...one would think the slightly more viscous 30 weight would increase drag enough off-set any reduction in friction during boundary layer lubrication over the MC formula, but apparently that isn't the case. There's still a net gain despite a very slight increase in fluid drag (8.7 cSt for MC vs. 10.3 cSt for PUP). Also, my oil pressure stays in the 70 psi range once things get hot instead of dropping to 60 psi with MC 5W-20 which falls a little more in line with the 10 psi for ever 1,000 RPM as a general rule of thumb for safe operation in performance engines. That means I have a little more temperature margin at the heat levels I see during hard driving and probably why Ford is now suggesting 5W-30 for track use with the 2018+'s.

There may be other oils that have MoDTC that will work well with TriboTEX, but I see no reason to pay a premium for a boutique oil when PUP is quite affordable, readily available and performs just as well. There are certainly other common off-the-shelf oils that fall into the "ideal thin 5W-30" category that are right around 10 cSt at 100C like Valvoline's new formula that GT Pony is using. But I have a lot of data on the performance of GTL base stocks, the cold flow of PUP 5W-30 is better than the cold flow of MC 5W-20, pricing is relatively similar, it's widely available, contains MoDTC, meet's Ford specs for 5W-30's and it's viscosity at 100C is ideal at right around 10 cSt. So I have no reason to use anything else at this point unless avail ability becomes an issue.

Anyway, TirboTEX, Archoil and CeraTek all have In Situ DLC solid lubricants in them. TirboTEX uses Synthetic Magnesium Silicate Hydroxide while Archoil and CeraTek use Hexagonal Boron Nitride and also contain chemical friction modifiers whose benefits you loose with the oil change. But because all three of them create a long term tribofilm that lasts up to 30,000 to 40,000 miles, the benefits remain through multiple oil changes.

One of those benefits is a porous lattice structure which is part of the bonding layer of the DLC film that promotes oil adhesion. This porous structure bonds to the metal surfaces through mechanical action (pressure and heat). ZDDP adheres to the gaps in between as well where it can chemically attach to metal surfaces, so ZDDP functions along with the isDLC coatings. That porous structure promotes better oil adhesion on those surfaces compared to just ZDDP alone. That's likely where the "quieter"operation comes from when using any of these additives. Even with the same viscosity oil, your oil film will be more robust (greater MOFT) because of adhesion (that's one of the reason's Esters generate robust films, more so than PAO's which do not adhere that well, because of their negative charge allows good adhesion to positively charged metal surfaces). So once a part becomes hydrodynamic or mixed, you will see benefits there as well and I believe that the increased oil adhesion is the primary reason for the quieting of the BBQ Ignitor tick regardless of oil used, it's how the DLC coatings enhance oil adhesion. It fundamentally changes how the oil interacts with the metal surfaces.

The only issue I've seen with CeraTek is that some of the solid lubricant or possibly some of the chemical friction modifiers can settle into a gel at the bottom of the oil pan if you don't drive your car regularly during the initial fill. Once that happens it seems it stays there unless you pull the pan and wipe it off, or possibly get the oil very hot, it may re-mix. I don't know if Archoil suffers the same issue or not. But TriboTEX is ONLY a DLC coating and contains no chemical friction modifiers. It's sole purpose is to coat metal wear surfaces in a low friction tribo-film and uses your oil as the carrier rather than fundamentally altering your oil's additive package like CeraTek and Archoil. So there's no settling issues with TriboTEX. Just be aware of how each works and it's pros / cons.

TriboTEX: longest life span at 40,000 miles, undetectable visually in your oil, works in a synergistic manner with ZDDP (and newer organic zinc compounds) and also with both MoS2 and more importantly with MoDTC which is being used in more and more oil formulas. Optimal concentrations of MoDTC range from 200 ppm up to 600 ppm, but there is benefits even with lower concentrations. Most expensive, you need the Diesel concentration for the 5.0. Regular concentration for V6 or Ecoboost. By far, TriboTEX has the most research, testing and funding behind it, which is all available for your viewing pleasure. Notable sponsors of TriboTEX: National Science Foundation, Department of Defense, NASA, Department of Energy, winner of MIT Clean Energy Prize and Argonne National Laboratory. There are some big names behind it.

Archoil: 30,000 life span. Does not change the color your oil like CeraTek. Similar performance to CeraTek. Suspended in a Group V Ester base oil. Contains chemical friction modifiers (most likely MoDTC or other Moly based friction reducer). Middle price point between TriboTEX and CeraTek. Loose the benefits of the chemical friction modifier after oil change, but the hBN DLC coating remains for approximately 30k. No published test data that I'm aware of. Just user reports. But I expect results to be on par with CeraTek. Not aware of any settling issues like what can occur with CeraTek.

CeraTek: 30,000 life span. Similar to Archoil in most respects, but does change the color your oil AND it can settle in the bottom of your oil pan if you don't drive regularly. Lowest cost option and probably the most used / longest history of use in Europe (LiquiMoly has been producing MoS2 additives for years with good results long term). No published standardized test data (ASTM wear, friction tests). However numerous dyno tests have been performed which show the friction reduction benefits as well fuel consumption tests.

 

[Condor1970]

^^^ I've wondered about this. I put PUP w/Ceratec in my old Suburban 5.7L, and runs so much smother. I only drive it once a week, and do worry about the Ceratec settling.

I also notice a very "slight" increase in mpg with PUP in my Mustang, but recently switched to QSUD, and it seems to be the same mpg as PUP. I know they both use GTL, but wonder how close their formulations are? The bottle design is identical too, except green.

 

[s550jr]

so ive been looking around for a bit now cant find anyone with the same noise as me. i got my short block replaced recently because of the bbq tick and just got it back week and a half now. have put around 400 miles on new block and bbq tick is back but nothing like before. the previous tick was incredibly loud. but i also have a weird rattle during cold starts or if the car sat at least an hour or so and this is with the new block. listen and see if anyone has heard this before on your own car and any ideas as to what this could be. also car had the 2k rpm rattle aswell and that is still present with the new block too heard it leaving the dealer when i picked it up.

 

[Jimmy G]

FFS it's got 400 miles on it.

Drive it for three months. Run it in. You are hearing sounds that aren't there because of the trauma of being off the road for a while and the many trips you've done to the dealers before getting the engine replaced. Even the quietest car will sound like it's swallowed a bag of rocks when you rev it in a cave, like you're doing.

Report back in September.

 

[Top_Notch]

50ml of ceratec influences end play?

Excessive side rod clearance cushioned by ceratec so that the sound is diminished and not audible. The reason the coyote motors tick more often at idle or at idle with a load (i.e. ac compressor) is that at idle the crank thrust is minimal. Some engines have to rev up to find the spot where the crank walks (or an added load) and cause the rod to be audible. I believe the reason the tick is intermittent is because it's limited to a select crank journal and crank side load (crank walk) position by speed of the crank.

Certainly others have had out of round bores and noisy valvetrain components that only serve to muddy the discussion. While those happen and people have legitimate gripes, the majority of the coyote ticks can be boiled down to excessive side rod clearance .

 

[accel]

Here's a story of a guy I know.

New engine ticks even before oil change.

He gets new short block.

Scared the engine will start ticking again, 200 miles on new non ticking block he decides to change oil to Red Line.

Immediately after oil change engine ticks again. Before he even moved the car out of ramps.

 

[Jetnoise]

Here's a story of a guy I know.

New engine ticks even before oil change.

He gets new short block.

Scared the engine will start ticking again, 200 miles on new non ticking block he decides to change oil to Red Line.

Immediately after oil change engine ticks again. Before he even moved the car out of ramps.

Must be that rod clearance

 

[Condor1970]

Must be that rod clearance

On a brand new short block. Wow. Mine also started ticking at 600-800 miles on original factory oil.

Either that, or it really is oil flashing and bubbling. If it wasn't ticking on factory oil, I can't help but wonder what Ford put in that oil. LOL

 

[GT Pony]

... I can't help but wonder what Ford put in that oil. LOL

Maybe some XL-17 ... How else can it be explained that some engines started the typewriter tick after an oil change using the same Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend that the engine "supposedly" comes from the factory with. If it was cavitation, why didn't it cavitate again with the same oil, or cavitate right off the factory floor when there was zero miles on the oil (basically the same as a fresh oil change).

If it is indeed rod moving side to side on the crank journals and clanging (ticking), it's possible that due to clearances, machining finish quality on all the parts, etc during manufacturing, that some might tick to some degree even if the rod side clearance was within specs. Who knows what might make the free floating rods move side to side on the journals while the engine is running. The more clearance there is, the louder and more prominent the ticking might be, and that may also explain why some guys get rid of the ticking by simply using a different brand/viscosity of oil, or get rid of the ticking with just 50 mL of Ceratec while other guys have to use two bottles. Lots of variables going in IMO with this whole BBQ/typewriter ticking phenomenon.

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