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w3rkn

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You have to be seriously high on the same koolaid Ford Marketing is on to think any of those assertions have merit based on that document....

I guess that is the point most of us are making. You are only taking ONE example.

When/if you have been following weeks, months after those statements, you will see that Ford engineers (in different venues), all adding more tidbits and acknowledgements & verifications, etc.

So our FACTS are based on varied sources, and when taken all together, paint the picture we are telling you.



Why would ford do any of this, if they can just stick an older RS engine into the HPO and wipe their hand of it? But instead, announce casting of a new block and new turbos, etc... like they said.

It is because it wasn't good enough for what Ford is trying to do with their 2020 AWD hybrid RS. And Ford Performance needed a new casting & sleeves for that.

A variant of THAT^... is what is in the HPO.
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A variant of THAT^... is what is in the HPO.
That is one WHOPPER of a leap in logic. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be delighted if that were true. You could be correct that the "new for 200" Focus-RS motor + electric motors at the wheels is how Ford is getting 400'ish for the expected hot hatch. And that the Mustang gets a simplified drive-train (no AWD) and no electric assist and thus is circa 320HP.

Nothing in that marketing statement reasonably suggests that the 2020 Mustang is going to use the 2020 Focus engine in any way shape or fashion. I'd sooner believe the Mustang is using the now deprecated Focus motor with some updates than believe the former. Engine development is expensive and the cachet of a fancy-pants Focus RS commands WAY more $$$ than the "el-cheapo" Mustang EB.

We shall see soon enough. But I would be very prepared to be disappointed.
 

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why not cut this shit and drop a Coyote instead :?
Because I care more about handling than straight line performance. I rarely use all the power I have. And if I wanted my car to handle like it had a Coyote, it would be a lot cheaper to just put 200 pounds of lead in the front end.
 

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That is one WHOPPER of a leap in logic. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be delighted if that were true. You could be correct that the "new for 200" Focus-RS motor + electric motors at the wheels is how Ford is getting 400'ish for the expected hot hatch. And that the Mustang gets a simplified drive-train (no AWD) and no electric assist and thus is circa 320HP.

Nothing in that marketing statement reasonably suggests that the 2020 Mustang is going to use the 2020 Focus engine in any way shape or fashion. I'd sooner believe the Mustang is using the now deprecated Focus motor with some updates than believe the former. Engine development is expensive and the cachet of a fancy-pants Focus RS commands WAY more $$$ than the "el-cheapo" Mustang EB.

We shall see soon enough. But I would be very prepared to be disappointed.

Are conflating two ideas and mixing things up (on purpose) for laughs?
"Nothing in that marketing statement reasonably suggests that the 2020 Mustang is going to use the 2020 Focus engine in any way shape or fashion."

My whole point to you is that you need to hear it all, not just one statement from 2 months ago. But what about the other statements from Ford..? Or other interviews? Or other venues, with other Ford engineers..?




Secondly, you argument doesn't seem sound.
Ford said the Mustang HPO will make an estimated/projected 335hp. <--- Do you believe that?

Or do you think that Ford Performance is throwing around that 335hp BMW number out there, like they are doing with the unreleased GT500 horsepower figures...? Again... Do you really think that Ford needs to do anything Carl suggested (new block, new sleeves, new turbo), to get 335hp out of an Ecoboost..?


I'll stop there, because you are having a difficult time answering that very basic and logical question. When you understand those two very same questions, then we can leap forward to what else has been said, elsewhere. Otherwise, you are going to keep going in circles.
 

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Otherwise, you are going to keep going in circles.
Well this whole thread is circular logic and jumping to unfounded and unsupported (aka wishful) thinking.
Do you really think that Ford needs to do anything Carl suggested (new block, new sleeves, new turbo), to get 335hp out of an Ecoboost..?
Are you posing the question in the vein of "hitting 335hp out of a turbo 2.3L is easy with retired RS parts" or that the 335HP is over optimistic? The current mass-produced "state of the art" hovers around 250HP (GTI, Bmw), or 300 for full-zoot specials. We don't know how many people will jump for the HiPO but to your point, no, recycling the "retired" RS engine should hit ~330 without much trouble.

I'm sure you'd much prefer that the HiPO use the new Focus engine but I can't see that happening for at least 2 more years if then.

On a side note, I totally see what the "throttle lag" guys are talking about. There is a HUGE hole in the throttle connection somewhere between 60-80 percent travel. I expect a remap will clear that right up. My V6 had something similar though not quite as pronounced.
 

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jake_zx2

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It is my understanding that the new 2.3 high performance engine is basically the same Focus RS engine with some differences.

"Capacity utilization at Ford’s Valencia, Spain, engine factory gets a boost from the ’20 Mustang, as it will adopt the Focus RS engine for a new affordable performance version coming this fall. The RS’s 2.3-liter EcoBoost inline-four has been turned 90 degrees for the longitudinal, rear-drive application, but don’t expect it to be called RS—that’s already claimed in the segment by the Chevrolet Camaro. Instead, the car will go by the more ungainly 2020 Ford Mustang 2.3-liter High-Performance Package.

Key to the transformation is the adoption of the Focus RS’s high-performance cylinder head, which allows for “a lot more boost” compared with the standard 310-hp, 350-lb-ft 2.3-liter Mustang EcoBoost four, says Carl Widmann, the model’s chief engineer. Widmann’s engineering team fitted a 63-mm twin-scroll turbo compressor, which is five percent larger than was used in the Focus RS, and a larger radiator to the new Mustang. Engineers then calibrated the 2.3 to couple with both of the pony car’s transmission choices, a 10-speed automatic and six-speed Getrag manual"
Thank you. I knew I read it somewhere, but just didn't feel like finding the source for something so insignificant

Now, more People are laughing at you....

Wow, how nonsensical and egotistical you are. Please, PLEASE, quote 1 person who's "laughing" at me

You don't know what causes throttle lag, when we already told you..?
Honestly, you were just told in the post you quoted and you are still trying to play like you don't know, or understand..?.

There is nothing that causes throttle lag, because throttle lag is made up in your head. You didn't explain anything, you made a bunch of nonsensical remarks, just like the one I'm about to rebut for, what, the 5th time?

Understand, that new cars use a Engine Control Unit (ECU) that control the throttle. As the throttle in modern cars are NO LONGER directly controlled by the driver and their gas pedal. The gas pedal is just an input device now... & does not directly control the throttle. (There is software between your right foot and the engines throttle.)

Throttle lag is when you fully press the gas pedal and nothing happens..... because the ECU is trying to predict what the driver wants. That idle time... is throttle lag. I do not know how to make it any more simpler for you. But just accept that this is how it is done in the automotive industry now and that algorithms define how an engine responds, and not how fast you step on a pedal...!.

That's not at all how it works. Understand, the ECU processes faster than the human brain can process. Any "throttle lag" you're feeling is ALL in your head. The amount of time that it takes the computer to process is likely pretty close to the amount of time it takes an old cable-driven throttle to reach enough tension to start applying force to the throttle body... a miniscule amount of time

However, this is beside the point. You were using this "throttle lag" bullshit as a moronic way to say that the ecoboost doesn't have ANY turbo lag (you literally said that the EB makes full boost at idle... like what the hell are you smoking?!) and that the difference in throttle response you feel relative to the GT (which uses the same throttle mapping) is due to the fact that it apparently takes engines with less cylinders longer to respond to throttle inputs (complete and absolute bullshit). THAT is what you described as "throttle lag", and now you're changing your story because you looked like ab absolute idiot

Yes, you quoted my expected options price, so what, it was a guess...!
I was not privy to that information, so my price estimates are off. Again, so what? My fully loaded pricing was spot on, but you overlook that, because you are angry.
You are not privy to ANY information. Every bit of information you supply is pulled out of your ass. Listen closely here; YOU ARE A NOBODY. YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT. YOU HAVE NO IMPACT IN THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY. Are we clear?

Again, what does a Mustang GT w/magneride and 301a option cost..? <--How did you get the price difference so wrong? Did you make a bad guess? Should we all be laughing at you because of this?
No one is or was talking about a GT with MR and 301a. We're talking about a base GT, that's it. My price difference was not "so wrong", in fact, it was close to spot on. I predicted a $1-2k premium for the HiPo HP over a base GT, and as it turns out, it's almost exactly $1k. However, I never tried to push that out as any sort of facts or insider information... YOU DID, which is why you're being laughed at

Also, I have been unable to post in that EB thread for well over a month now. Admin revoked my posting privilege for that thread. (You have insufficient privileges to reply here.) I was letting the cat out of the bag too soon. So I am curtailed.
^^^.

What an egotistical maniac you are. No, you were not locked out of the tread because you were "letting the cat out of the bag too soon". That's absolutely moronic. If that were the case, ALL of our insiders would be locked out, and we'd never get teasers on upcoming cars. No, you were likely locked out of the thread because you are a complete and total idiot who spreads misinformation like a pedophile giving out candy.

But you are making it out to sound, as if everyone in Detroit is lying to you. So there is no point in having a conversation if you can't accept that the Focus RS is no longer in production and that a new RS is on the way.... with a brand new engine.
I never said anyone in Detroit is lying, I just don't think they're giving the fine print. Manufacturers are known for doing things like this... it's called effective marketing. That's how they get suckers like you
I'm fully aware that the FoRS is out of production, I've been saying that. However, there's NO confirmation whatsoever (or any indication, as no spy shots have been taken) that a new RS is on the way. It can be assumed, but we don't know for sure, and we SURE AS HELL don't already know what powertrain it has

I know, it is inconceivable to you... that Ford Motor Company & Ford Performance would design a new block for the up-&-coming RS. Which has to compete with all the other hot hatches coming out in Europe. And while they do, Ford might as well mitigate the cost, and offer the SAME engine also in a high performance version Mustang, too.
Okay, so if it's conceivable for you that Ford would make an all-new engine for the next gen FoRS that isn't even confirmed yet (and for some reason, give it LESS power than it's predecessor??), then why is it not at all conceivable that Ford would reuse the engine from their last iteration of the recently-deceased FoRS to make as much money as possible from all the production investments dumped into that project? Interesting how that works, huh?
 

jake_zx2

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Again, the guy above if it came down to base gt vs loaded eco. That’s a no brainer for myself and my peers. The interior and everything is worth it for the lesser hp and tq and way better mpg.

Not to mention, my area and my age, people aren’t buying high cylinder engines. The fad here is turbo and lower cylinders I’m 28 and all my friends and rocking turbo 4’s in everything.

All the older gentleman’s are rocking 8 cylinders, maybe because it’s more expensive and we want to save money and cheaper car.

But imho. Comfort over some power loss is not bad, it’s a good trade off with the mpg
I'm not sure where all you guys are getting this idea of fully loaded EB vs base GT... Neither car is fully loaded, the EB HiPo gets no additional luxuries. The Handling Package requires 301A, which does nothing for comfort and just adds the bigger infotainment screen and different toggle switches.

FWIW, I get what you're saying about not wanting the base car... I skipped out on PP2 to get 401A just because I couldn't imagine spending $45k+ on a base model interior. However, the EB fully loaded is around $45k... that's enough to get you a GT 401A, which will have no major deficiencies in comfort vs an ecoboost

I guess that is the point most of us are making. You are only taking ONE example.

When/if you have been following weeks, months after those statements, you will see that Ford engineers (in different venues), all adding more tidbits and acknowledgements & verifications, etc.

So our FACTS are based on varied sources, and when taken all together, paint the picture we are telling you.
Please... PLEASE provide us all of your sources. Every single one that laid out the "facts" of this being a 2020 Focus RS engine. For once, back your absurd claims with SOMETHING
 
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EcoVert

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From Motor 1
Ford says the tweaked 2.3-liter EcoBoost engine under the hood has ties to the Focus RS hot hatchback.

The rest of the press coverage and Ford's press release have so much bull shit in them it's hard to tell what is the truth.
 

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Well this whole thread is circular logic and jumping to unfounded and unsupported (aka wishful) thinking.

Are you posing the question in the vein of "hitting 335hp out of a turbo 2.3L is easy with retired RS parts" or that the 335HP is over optimistic? The current mass-produced "state of the art" hovers around 250HP (GTI, Bmw), or 300 for full-zoot specials. We don't know how many people will jump for the HiPO but to your point, no, recycling the "retired" RS engine should hit ~330 without much trouble.

I'm sure you'd much prefer that the HiPO use the new Focus engine but I can't see that happening for at least 2 more years if then.

On a side note, I totally see what the "throttle lag" guys are talking about. There is a HUGE hole in the throttle connection somewhere between 60-80 percent travel. I expect a remap will clear that right up. My V6 had something similar though not quite as pronounced.
:shock:

It was a very simple and defining question that you will not answer. I wonder why? Is it because if you do, you could no longer troll. Yet....
Understand the question was bi-fold, so you could not beat around it. Yet..


I asked why would Ford need to do anything, to the outgoing RS engine, to reach 335hp. <---

I asked why you why did Ford need to do anything to the outgoing RS engine (to achieve 335hp), which put focus on why would Carl say Ford did all these things to the engine, to bring this HPO engine out. Because (again) the outgoing RS engine is 350hp... so IN FACT, Ford would not have to do anything to the outgoing Focus RS engine, because 335hp is 15 less horsepower, than the RS's 350hp. o_O

So (again) why would Ford need to do anything, let alone work with Ford Performance and cast a new block, put iron sleeves on, have new forged piston and add a new (larger) turbo..?


Yet... you can not explain why Ford Motor Company would have to do all of those upgrades mentioned during the press release, to get 335hp out of a 350hp engine..? Seriously, you have to explain yourself here, why purposely post such ignorance.


You are not even attempting a legitimate conversation = trolling.
 

jake_zx2

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Yet... you can not explain why Ford Motor Company would have to do all of those upgrades mentioned during the press release, to get 335hp out of a 350hp engine..? Seriously, you have to explain yourself here, why purposely post such ignorance.
Because... Listen closely here... those are all the same upgrades that were made to the RS to make 330hp, all of which would be considered "new to the Mustang"

Again, you're buying into the marketing
 

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jake_zx2

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so IN FACT, Ford would not have to do anything to the outgoing Focus RS engine, because 335hp is 15 less horsepower, than the RS's 350hp. o_O
The HiPo is currently slated to make 330hp and 350ft lbs, not this 335 that you keep quoting (again, pulling things out your ass). The Focus RS when not in overboost mode makes 330hp and 350ft lbs. Interesting that the 2 cars that have the same components upgraded from the base Ecoboost make the same numbers, huh?
 

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Thank you. I knew I read it somewhere, but just didn't feel like finding the source for something so insignificant

Wow, how nonsensical and egotistical you are. Please, PLEASE, quote 1 person who's "laughing" at me
There is nothing that causes throttle lag, because throttle lag is made up in your head. You didn't explain anything, you made a bunch of nonsensical remarks, just like the one I'm about to rebut for, what, the 5th time?

That's not at all how it works. Understand, the ECU processes faster than the human brain can process. Any "throttle lag" you're feeling is ALL in your head. The amount of time that it takes the computer to process is likely pretty close to the amount of time it takes an old cable-driven throttle to reach enough tension to start applying force to the throttle body... a miniscule amount of time

However, this is beside the point. You were using this "throttle lag" bullshit as a moronic way to say that the ecoboost doesn't have ANY turbo lag (you literally said that the EB makes full boost at idle... like what the hell are you smoking?!) and that the difference in throttle response you feel relative to the GT (which uses the same throttle mapping) is due to the fact that it apparently takes engines with less cylinders longer to respond to throttle inputs (complete and absolute bullshit). THAT is what you described as "throttle lag", and now you're changing your story because you looked like ab absolute idiot



You are not privy to ANY information. Every bit of information you supply is pulled out of your ass. Listen closely here; YOU ARE A NOBODY. YOU ARE NOT IMPORTANT. YOU HAVE NO IMPACT IN THE AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY. Are we clear?



No one is or was talking about a GT with MR and 301a. We're talking about a base GT, that's it. My price difference was not "so wrong", in fact, it was close to spot on. I predicted a $1-2k premium for the HiPo HP over a base GT, and as it turns out, it's almost exactly $1k. However, I never tried to push that out as any sort of facts or insider information... YOU DID, which is why you're being laughed at


What an egotistical maniac you are. No, you were not locked out of the tread because you were "letting the cat out of the bag too soon". That's absolutely moronic. If that were the case, ALL of our insiders would be locked out, and we'd never get teasers on upcoming cars. No, you were likely locked out of the thread because you are a complete and total idiot who spreads misinformation like a pedophile giving out candy.



I never said anyone in Detroit is lying, I just don't think they're giving the fine print. Manufacturers are known for doing things like this... it's called effective marketing. That's how they get suckers like you
I'm fully aware that the FoRS is out of production, I've been saying that. However, there's NO confirmation whatsoever (or any indication, as no spy shots have been taken) that a new RS is on the way. It can be assumed, but we don't know for sure, and we SURE AS HELL don't already know what powertrain it has



Okay, so if it's conceivable for you that Ford would make an all-new engine for the next gen FoRS that isn't even confirmed yet (and for some reason, give it LESS power than it's predecessor??), then why is it not at all conceivable that Ford would reuse the engine from their last iteration of the recently-deceased FoRS to make as much money as possible from all the production investments dumped into that project? Interesting how that works, huh?

You are not here for discussion. Your technique is to threadcrap all over the place, with big... long... arbitrary posts that nobody wants to read, or even respond to.

Yes, people were laughing at you in that thread. Obvious by now You don't know shit about ECU's or the matrices & variables that ECU controls, that PURPOSELY interferes and hinders a car's ability to have full throttle. That is why People tune their cars. And we are not talking about throttle mapping. Which does nothing more than change the position of the pedal input...

While again, throttle lag is the pause after you mash your pedal. Or decide what gear, or decides if it is too slippery, etc. Notice how even full throttle in the different modes, act differently? Traction control.. doesn't that control the throttle too..? Oh snap! You mean the ECU can cut power, or control power..? Don't get too upset over "throttle lag" it wasn't a major point, but I know it makes you raving mad. Because everyone know there is a pause when you mash a car's gas pedal, some cars don't respond for SECONDS.



Secondly, stop lying!
I never said an ecoboost has full boost at idle. I said it has full boost at about 2,300 rpms, while having positive boost just off idle around 900rpms. Why are you resorting to using lies, and attacking me...? You mad..?


3rd, you are once again fibbing to the community members here.
YOU were the one taking my quote and bashing me with it, when I was mentioning an equivalent GT or PP2, that equals the HPO. I have never said BASE GT. That is why YOUR numbers don't match.. (still angry?)

Honestly, why are you comparing a Premium car, to a base car..? Why are you comparing a Mustang that has Magneride, to one that doesn't. Logic dictates that you keep a constant, by making them both equal in features... and compare engine and performance. You are just babbering about how much a turbo cost.. which isn't an issue of performance, just something you can't personally handle.


4th, You do not know who I am, so nothing you say means squat. Though, many people here in this community that know me, are now laughing at you, more..

5th, Nobody wants to witness your tirades, when you can't even speak with facts. I am not them only person here telling you the same thing. Are you going to attack everyone who refutes you. Or are you going to learn that people are telling you things... and you have to read through the lines. Stop being so obtuse.




Though it is quite funny that you do not believe Ford (Carl) and you think Ford is lying to you. That means you are helpless.
 

jake_zx2

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You are not here for discussion. Your technique is to threadcrap all over the place, with big... long... arbitrary posts that nobody wants to read, or even respond to.
Of course you're not going to read it... you have the attention span of a chimpanzee and can only read so many words before you come to your own inaccurate conclusions... really reflects in pretty much any ridiculous point you try to make

Obvious by now You don't know shit about ECU's or the matrices & variables that ECU controls, that PURPOSELY interferes and hinders a car's ability to have full throttle. That is why People tune their cars. And we are not talking about throttle mapping. Which does nothing more than change the position of the pedal input...
I can't believe you started with that sentence... and finished with THAT sentence. It's quite obvious who here doesn't know jack about ECUs

1. The ECU doesn't "PURPOSELY interferes and hinders a car's ability to have full throttle"
2. That is not why people tune their cars. People tune their cars to adjust parameters like AFR, timing advance, VCT, etc. Then again, you probably don't know what any of those are
3. THROTTLE MAPPING AND RESPONSE TO PEDAL INPUT ARE EXACTLY WHAT WE'RE FUCKING TALKING ABOUT. HOW DENSE ARE YOU?

it's really hard to imagine someone being THIS much of a moron

While again, throttle lag is the pause after you mash your pedal. Or decide what gear, or decides if it is too slippery, etc. Notice how even full throttle in the different modes, act differently?.
That's called Traction Control, buddy. That's not fucking THROTTLE LAG :LMAO:

Traction control.. doesn't that control the throttle too..? Oh snap! You mean the ECU can cut power, or control power..?
Yes, the ECU can cut power if traction control is left on. What does that have to do with ANYTHING?

Don't get too upset over "throttle lag" it wasn't a major point, but I know it makes you raving mad. Because everyone know there is a pause when you mash a car's gas pedal, some cars don't respond for SECONDS.
Trust me, I'm not even remotely upset. Last time, you gave me ALL KINDS of gold to share with my fellow engineers. You're just feeding the fire here, bud. And no, the only people who "know" that are the people who don't "know" any better

Secondly, stop lying!
I never said an ecoboost has full boost at idle. I said it has full boost at about 2,300 rpms, while having positive boost just off idle around 900rpms. Why are you resorting to using lies, and attacking me...? You mad..?
Positive boost, full boost, in your mind there's no difference, because in your mind, turbo lag doesn't exist in modern cars! (you know, even though you just explained the car having turbo lag right there in the fact that it takes 2300RPMs to fully spool the turbo)


3rd, you are once again fibbing to the community members here.
YOU were the one taking my quote and bashing me with it, when I was mentioning an equivalent GT or PP2, that equals the HPO. I have never said BASE GT. That is why YOUR numbers don't match.. (still angry?)
I am not, nor have I ever, fibbed on this forum. You, on the other hand... hooooooooo boy, do we have a delusional one here
I'm not "bashing you", I'm trying to get some reason through your thick fucking skull.
You NEVER ONCE mentioned the PP2 until now. In fact, I don't think anyone in this thread mentioned PP2. But my numbers have ALWAYS matched, and if you REALLY don't think so, then go ahead and quote exactly where they didn't. I'll wait... oh, and I'll also wait for the other things that I asked you to quote and you magically couldn't procure... interesting how that works, huh?

Honestly, why are you comparing a Premium car, to a base car..? Why are you comparing a Mustang that has Magneride, to one that doesn't. Logic dictates that you keep a constant, by making them both equal in features... and compare engine and performance. You are just babbering about how much a turbo cost.. which isn't an issue of performance, just something you can't personally handle.
I'm not comparing a premium car to a base car. You can go ahead and quote where I did
magride means nothing, because the car will still get outperformed. That's like saying "you can't compare the ZL1 1LE to the GT350R because the GT350R has Magride!"... no, that doesn't mean a single thing. It's just a scapegoat to get out of admitting you have the inferior car
Logic dictates you compare cars at a similar price point. In this case, the options don't mean shit, because the GT with all the same options absolutely obliterates the Ecoboost and also costs a good bit more. They really aren't even in the same league. Comparing a base GT to the HiPo however... well, they're the same price, have similar amenities, and might have similar performance in at least 1 aspect. However, the GT will still come out on top, so it's a downhill battle for the EB


4th, You do not know who I am, so nothing you say means squat. Though, many people here in this community that know me, are now laughing at you, more..
I don't give a fuck who you are, the way you represent yourself in this forums shows you know NOTHING. You are clueless, hopeless, and really just an embarrassment. Thank god you don't own a Mustang, so I can maintain as little similarity to you as possible. Also, quote 1 person that's "laughing at me" in this thread. I'll wait for that one, too

5th, Nobody wants to witness your tirades, when you can't even speak with facts. I am not them only person here telling you the same thing. Are you going to attack everyone who refutes you. Or are you going to learn that people are telling you things... and you have to read through the lines. Stop being so obtuse.
Are you joking? You speak with nothing but fallacies, yet try to say that I can't speak with facts and am obtuse? You are absolutely blind.

Also, I'm not attacking anyone. Maybe you feel attacked? "yOu MaD?"

Though it is quite funny that you do not believe Ford (Carl) and you think Ford is lying to you. That means you are helpless.
What's funnier is that you can't comprehend an EXTREMELY simple concept that multiple people in this thread have tried to explain to you. Talk about helpless
 

Biggus Dickus

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G
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Focus RS, Mustang GT, MME GTPE
Boy, you kids don't play nice:punch:
 
 




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