Seriously, How many tick/rattle engines in the last 2 months?

[Condor1970]

Condor, I appreciate your response and the obvious thought and research that you have put into this. I still don't quite understand how a friction modifier helps alleviate the popping sound you describe. What are your thoughts on that?

It's not the friction modifying nature of the hBn or graphite that stops the noise. It's the simple fact that you have added a solid nano-particulate to the oil itself. When you add a solid particulate, it changes the physical nature of the oil as it's essentially mixed with solids, and affects the way it flashes and bubbles under pressure/temperature. This is why a number of solid lubricants affect the noise, including XL-17, Krex, Ceratec, etc. It is also why the tick in many cases slowly dissipates over time without any additive at all. As carbon deposits build up in the oil, it changes the way it flashes and bubbles. When you get an oil change, all that carbon in the oil is gone, and it starts ticking louder again. This is why most seem to notice it start after their first oil change. I would not doubt if Ford is putting XL-17 in the initial oil fill from the factory to assist with engine break in.

Think of it like this. I know this is a weird comparison, but the idea is the same.... Take a pot of water on the stove. Bring it to a boil. As pure water, it will boil at 212F. However, if you add a few spoonfuls of sugar, and dissolve it into the water, that slight increase of particulates dissolved in the water will increase the boiling point by a few degrees. Even if it's such a small amount that you can't see it, or even taste it yet. Keep adding more and more sugar, and eventually the clear mixture won't boil until it hits 235F and beyond. In the case of sugar, it will start to carbonize (caramelize) and turn into candy. Not so with oil additives. They actually increase the flashing/boiling point of oil slightly, and survive longer to continue protecting the engine.

I think this may be why they might be putting something like XL-17 in the engines at the factory. I don't know this for certain, but I have a sneaky suspicion they do. Ford knows when young bucks like "Stangmode" on YouTube get a hold of a Mustang, the first he's going to do is a MASSIVE BURNOUT in the parking lot. LOL.

My guess is they do put some additive in there to help slow things down a bit. Eventually, as the engine breaks in, oil passages open up a little, bearings smooth out, and even sometimes a tick will be noticed before the first oil change, like in my case.

Even if they don't put additives in at the factory, the engine may or may not have ticking from the factory, as they are all built a little different. Some notice the tick right off the lot, and some at 800 miles like me, and some may not notice it until the first oil change after break in and all carbon is flushed out with fresh oil.

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[ihc95]

I know. I'm pretty sure Ford has chalked up the "typewriter tick" to the same oil flashing issue found in the Duramax and Powerstroke engines. However, the 2k rattle seems to be baffling everyone. It's definitely not piston slap though. If it isn't something to do with the cam phasers or IMRC, then all I could guess after that is some kind of chattering from the Direct Injectors when the throttle is at a certain position and engine RPM.

I say that only because this rattle doesn't seem to happen with the older Coyotes. The big difference with this engine is the whole new GDI system. And, the rattle only occurs during a given RPM range. That makes sense to me when it comes to the DI system. At lower RPM, the port injection is the majority of fuel fed to the engine. As RPM increases, the Direct Injectors begin to get a lot more active around 1,800-2,000rpm. That's when the noise starts, but then fades as the engine exceeds 2,500rpm. At higher RPM's, the noise is basically gone because the DI system is fully engaged to provide the majority of fuel at high power levels.

If it is the GDI system making noise as engine RPM increases, then I doubt there's anything at all that can be done to make it go away. When you're pumping gas into a cylinder at 3,000psi, GDI systems will be inherently noisy to begin with.

Another theory I've heard is that the Gen 3 intake runners create a fluttering sound around 2000rpm. I would say the noise definitely sounds more like a "flutter" than a "rattle," at least on my car.

 

[Condor1970]

Another theory I've heard is that the Gen 3 intake runners create a fluttering sound around 2000rpm. I would say the noise definitely sounds more like a "flutter" than a "rattle," at least on my car.

Yes, the IMRC "fluttering" may be a possible cause, but I honestly don't know for certain. It's one theory the Techs told me.

What I do know, is that it's definitely NOT piston slap. I've heard piston slap a few times now, and it doesn't sound anything like that.

 

[ihc95]

Yes, the IMRC "fluttering" may be a possible cause, but I honestly don't know for certain. It's one theory the Techs told me.

What I do know, is that it's definitely NOT piston slap. I've heard piston slap a few times now, and it doesn't sound anything like that.

100% Agreed. I don't believe it's piston slap either.

 

[Blue Horse]

100% Agreed. I don't believe it's piston slap either.

Weather you call it a tick,rattle flutter,bubbles it doesn't matter,Ford made a HUGE mistake with the Gen 3 Coyote engine,and many of them are self destructing not once but twice and more,and Ford is mum for an answer or a fix.As the old saying goes you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig,you can put any name on the Gen 3 Coyote engine, and it's still a BIG mistake that Ford created, at the Mustang customers expense and headache.

 

[ihc95]

Weather you call it a tick,rattle flutter,bubbles it doesn't matter,Ford made a HUGE mistake with the Gen 3 Coyote engine,and many of them are self destructing not once but twice and more,and Ford is mum for an answer or a fix.As the old saying goes you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig,you can put any name on the Gen 3 Coyote engine, and it's still a BIG mistake that Ford created, at the Mustang customers expense and headache.

Lol you seem to feel very strongly on the subject. I'm guessing you don't even own a Gen 3 right?

Love mine and it's been perfect for over a year.

 

[Condor1970]

Weather you call it a tick,rattle flutter,bubbles it doesn't matter,Ford made a HUGE mistake with the Gen 3 Coyote engine,and many of them are self destructing not once but twice and more,and Ford is mum for an answer or a fix.As the old saying goes you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig,you can put any name on the Gen 3 Coyote engine, and it's still a BIG mistake that Ford created, at the Mustang customers expense and headache.

Honestly, I have yet to hear of a catastrophic failure of a factory Gen 3 engine due to the typewriter tick. There have been some with cylinder scoring from hard use...and yes, they get hard use compared to normal daily drivers. Most catastrophic failures are occurring in boosted engines, not in complete factory setups. Even the ones who said they had cylinder scoring, a lot of them were even running CAI's and tunes that don't filter the air well enough and have altered ignition timing for more power. Or, some are even running the engines hard on 5w20 blended oil. Best thing for any hard running engines like these is use a high quality full synthetic.

 

[Condor1970]

OK, I gotta admit. The Chevy guys are having fun with this. At least they have a real sense of humor about it.

 

[Shifting_Gears]

I just can’t help but wonder how many happy 2018 GT owners would be driving around NOT worried about their engine popping if YouTube, Facebook and forums didn’t exist.

If the engine doesn’t pop during the warranty period due to the tick or rattle, chances are it’s going to continue to run fine for the rest of its service life.

As enthusiasts, unfortunately we are really good at perpetuating concerns and blowing them up to a “big scale” issue when no one seems to have a real answer.

IF people start dropping engines left and right down the road magically right past the warranty period, there might be enough meat on the bone for a class action suite. I don’t think that’s going to be the case though.

 

[GT Pony]

Condor, I appreciate your response and the obvious thought and research that you have put into this. I still don't quite understand how a friction modifier helps alleviate the popping sound you describe. What are your thoughts on that?

I don't think it's oil cavitation for a few reasons:

1) If oil cavitation happens in a journal bearing it happens inside the bearing in the low pressure region of the bearing opposite the minimum oil film wedge. It doesn't happen as oil exits the bearing.

2) Oil cavitation inside journal bearings can cause lots of bearing surface errosion/damage. Yet Ford says the ticking doesn't cause engine damage.

3) Small amounts of anti-friction additives (Ceratec, XL-17, etc) causes the ticking to disappear.

4) Some guys have used Ceratec which cured their ticking, then changed oil and did not put any Ceratec back in the oil, yet the tick was still gone because part surfaces were treated with an anti-friction layer. If the ticking was due to oil cavitation, it should have come back at that point. So IMO, this shows the ticking is affected by the level of friction between moving parts.

5) Oil cavitation in journal bearings increases with higher oil viscosity and higher bearing speed (engine RPM). This is opposite what people are seeing. Cavitation should increase with RPM, but the tick is from idle to 1500 RPM, and not heard at higher RPM. And some guys reported less or no ticking with heavier oil viscosity, again the opposite of what oil cavitation research in journal bearings showed.

http://or.nsfc.gov.cn/bitstream/00001903-5/477106/1/1000013598568.pdf

6) Guys who had ticking engines reported that the dealer found some rods with excessive side clearance. Replacing the short block fixed the tick (running no oil additives).

7) If the cause is excessive rod side clearance, Ford isn't going to come out and say that because they would be admitting to building engines not within specifications. Before SSM 7718, Ford would replace short blocks without any verification of cause.

If Ford has known it was "oil cavitation" since 2011, then why didn't they say so in 2012? And if it was oil cavitation, it wouldn't make sense to replace a short block, but if it was excessive parts clearances in the bottom end it does make sense to replace the short block.

Is all of this coincidence?

 

[Berry79]

Is it just me, or does it seem like everyone who babies their car for the first 1000 miles and then immediately changes the oil gets the so called tick. And those that drive like they stole right from start and change the oil somewhere between 3000-5000 miles seem to never have an issue.

 

[Condor1970]

I don't think it's oil cavitation for a few reasons:

I think it's oil flashing and bubbling, because...it's not occurring inside the journal. but more likely It's when it exits the journal.

1. That's what Ford said about the Powerstrokes in their TSB. (exact same noise)

2. It's what Chevrolet says about their Duramax engines in their TSB. (exact same noise)

3. Even Cummins engines make that same typewriter ticking noise, but you can't hear it because it's too loud. There's some videos of the Cummins 5.0L engines in the Titans with the exact same noise.

So, if the sound is identical to all those under identical circumstances, and Ford says it's a normal characteristic in SSM-7718, then I'll go with that.

 

[Condor1970]

Is it just me, or does it seem like everyone who babies their car for the first 1000 miles and then immediately changes the oil gets the so called tick. And those that drive like they stole right from start and change the oil somewhere between 3000-5000 miles seem to never have an issue.

No, that's not really the case. Plenty of guys who drive them hard get the tick later, just like the rest of us.

 

[boB]

I just can’t help but wonder how many happy 2018 GT owners would be driving around NOT worried about their engine popping if YouTube, Facebook and forums didn’t exist.

Probably the 90+% that don't look for problems on forums and media.

 

[GT Pony]

I think it's oil flashing and bubbling, because...it's not occurring inside the journal. but more likely It's when it exits the journal.

1. That's what Ford said about the Powerstrokes in their TSB. (exact same noise)

2. It's what Chevrolet says about their Duramax engines in their TSB. (exact same noise)

3. Even Cummins engines make that same typewriter ticking noise, but you can't hear it because it's too loud. There's some videos of the Cummins 5.0L engines in the Titans with the exact same noise.

So, if the sound is identical to all those under identical circumstances, and Ford says it's a normal characteristic in SSM-7718, then I'll go with that.

Then what's different about the Coyote V8 vs dozens of other brand high performance V8s that only makes the Coyote tick? I would think oil "flashing and bubbling" would be seen in other engines that were all within bottom end clearance specs if it was such a common phenomenon in journal bearings.

Still doesn't explain most of the points I gave in Post #163 above, especially item 4). I someone runs Ceratec for 5000 miles and the tick is gone the whole time, then changes oil and doesn't add any kind of additive and the ticking is still gone, then I don't see how the ticking could be related to oil cavitation. If it was oil cavitation, it should show back up with a fresh oil change again with no oil additives.

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