Who Tunes your 5.0? And Why?

[Kermitz]

Today I had my car dyno tuned with E85 by Shaun at AED. 460 HP / 433 TQ at the wheels on E85, a K&N and a MBRP Street catback. Really loving this car.

Sponsored

 

[Kong76]

Today I had my car dyno tuned with E85 by Shaun at AED. 460 HP / 433 TQ at the wheels on E85, a K&N and a MBRP Street catback. Really loving this car.

How did you like the experience? How long was the wait for an appt? Like to head up there and make it happen.

 

[Kermitz]

How did you like the experience? How long was the wait for an appt? Like to head up there and make it happen.

Shaun was really cool and knowledgeable. I was able to make an appointment a few weeks ahead of time. He had everything ready...X4 and E85. I just showed up for my appointment with a few gallons left in the tank. He does the rest.
It was worth it to me over the canned tunes, because I got to see the whole process and know what my car is putting to the wheels.

 

[AZ18yote]

How did you like the experience? How long was the wait for an appt? Like to head up there and make it happen.

Shaun had been great to work with remotely on multiple occasions. Bet even more so in person.

 

[WhiteyDog]

Been tuning with Dakota from Lund for my upgrades including my latest mods. Everything has been absolutely perfect, every time. No idling issues, no surging, no boost falling off, no knock issues, no nothing, EVER. The car runs exceptionally strong, mixed with customer service that is truly top shelf. Lund will always get my business.

 

[ChitownStang]

I'm very happy with my Steeda Tune and CAI. It is good for 91 octane and up and I feel it is a good balance between safe and powerful. Idles perfectly and never any glitches in throttle.

 

[erod730]

Exactly right, the biggest downside is upgrade path. You get what you get. But what you get is very well put together. There's the thing, your NOT going to make a whole lot more meaningful power over these tunes on pump gas with similar hardware. So no one would want to upgrade from a Power Pack 2 to an after market 93 tune and CAI. The change is meaningless. In fact some of the after market pump gas tunes make less average power even if they make a bit more peak power based on dynos I've seen. The hardware in the Power Packs 2 and 3 buys them some extra flow over the rev range that doesn't require as aggressive of timing.

And I don't think any of them got the GT350 throttle body to work correctly because of how involved the calibration changes are, at least not without having substantial drive ability impacts that most won't tolerate.

So if you step up to E85 from a Power Pack 2 or Power Pack 3, if your tuner could get the GT350 throttle body figured out, you would just need higher flow injectors and a tuning tool. So you could re-use the entire intake system. Even more so with Power Pack 3, you could make some big top end power on E85 with the whole GT350 intake setup revving it out to 7500 or really pushing it, 7800 rpm. I think some of the transfer ability issues are centered more around the lack of ability of tuners to use the GT350 hardware effectively, but it is possible if they have enough experience to re-use much of the hardware in the Power Packs. But for pump gas, it's hard to beat them as an overall package, including power output.

 

[TheLion70x77]

You have to remember that any aftermarket tune uses the stock calibration from ford as a base and keeps all those systems there unless you get some butchered tune, so if you get bad quality fuel the octane learning system will still work, so even if you are on the ragged edge for 93 bolt on cars wont blow up.

FI cars are a bit different and tuners will be a lot more conservative on their tunes, knock will break your pistons much faster so you don't want to rely to much on the knock sensors or the octane learning, they are still there working as a safety net but its not something you want to need.

After market tuners do not re-map all 2,400 cells in their "tweaked" tunes, they don't use data packs their cars to get cycle by cycle data and their tuning is based on averaging at 1/25th to 1/37th of the actual data because OBDII can't report anywhere near cycle by cycle. Ever heard of aliasing? Aliasing in signal analysis is a condition where a higher frequency signal exists than your polling interval. And if the phase relationship between the measured signal and the instrumentation taking the measurements (aka sampling) is not synchronized, then the measurements are blind to important points in the measured signal that may never be seen. The engine may tolerate those conditions for a limited time, 50k, 75k etc. before it prematurely fails. This is exactly why there are so many after market tuned cars that don't make it on pump gas. The failure rates are really high with boosted cars, NA engines are more tolerant.

Each of these tables values are used in different driving conditions, rpm ranges, loads and on varying fuel quality. They simply aren't as well done as the Ford Performance offerings. I'm not arguing at all that a bit more power can be had in a few cases by trying to tweak out that last 5 hp for the fuel quality in your area or your particular car, but on the same fuel with similar hardware, they aren't putting out anything more than what Ford Performance is on their pump gas tunes. This is why I suggested go after market for E85, Long Tube Headers, FI, 2018 intake manifold conversion, Nitrous or other power adders Ford Performance doesn't cover if you want more than what pump gas, CAI, tune and exhaust can give you. But 99% of owners on this forum don't go past the basic trifecta and most also run pump gas.

Regarding your commends on octane learn, if their calibrations where using octane learn, then why can't you run 91 on a 93 tune...because they don't have octane learn. Octane learn is different than timing advance. Octane learn allows the ECU to figure out the fuel grade and automatically switch maps for the fuel grade. Ford Performance uses the OE approach of allowing the ECU to figure out the fuel octane over a specific set of driving conditions and automatically switch timing and fueling maps. I'm not aware of any after market calibrators doing that, you have to re-program the ECU manually. I'm not into flashing my ECU constantly to switch fuel grades. I run 93 most of the time, but sometimes I travel and I can throw 91 in the tank, the ECU switches maps for me. These calibrators are also NOT doing full engine tear downs to check for abnormal wear or contaminant buildup...they assume everything is copacetic. They do NOT perform endurance testing, Ford Performance puts their cars through endurance testing on the track, again another durability validation.

They also offer you NO warranty. So if you crack a piston, spin a bearing or bend a rod, even if it wasn't the calibrator's fault, such as a latent Ford production defect, you S.O.L. and footing the bill. You have to weigh the risks. I've seen several F-150 guys on the F-150 forums that were tuned run into big issues down the road after 50k-100k. Their trucks ran fine up to that point, but over time things wear out and abnormal stresses can cause premature failures that would have been covered under normal powertrain or extended warranties. Weather the issues were caused by the calibration or not is irrelevant, they foot the bill regardless. There are plenty of instaces of defective 5.0's that were bone stock that ended up being replaced for re-built due to manufacturing defects, go over to the issues / TSB's section and see for yourself. So for people who can afford the worst case scenario which is an engine tear down and re-build ON THEIR DIME, no car for at least a month or two, go after market, have at it. Or if you want more than an intake, exhaust and calibration can give you on pump gas.

But for those who use their car as a secondary or DD and are still paying on it, it's not worth the risk for a few HP on pump gas. How dumb would it be to trash an engine or pay for a Ford manufacturing defect on a car you don't even own and for what, 5~10 hp? In fact many of the pump gas tunes I've seen when the only other modifications are intake and exhaust, similar to Power Pack 2, are making less average power than Ford Performance. There's more to a fast car than peak power and having a broad torque band can more than make up for a small difference in peak power as well, Power Packs are hard to beat in that regard.

Ford Performance Pros:
1. Makes about as much power as you can with just a CAI and ECU Calibration on pump gas. Also offers Power Pack 3 with the GT350 intake manifold if you want big top end power.
2. Fully covered under warranty. Even after 36 k / 3y, failures not related to the Ford Performance modifications ARE warrantied as per the language. I had a catalytic converter go out just a few months ago (passenger side). While I was under my 36k mileage limit (bumper to bumper), I was over 3yrs since the date of manufacture of my car, so it was billed under my 100k / 7yr extended warranty the car came with as a Ford Used Certified car. Emissions systems normally are not covered under the 60k / 5yr to my knowledge and are only required by law to be warrantied for 2 years, 24k miles minimum. Some offer more, but that is the mandated minimum.
3. Octane learn, you can run 91, 92, 93+, the ECU will switch maps automatically based on fuel detection.
4. Emissions legal. This is big for me because my car is not old enough to be considered a historical vehicle (emissions exempt) and I have mandatory E-check in my area that MUST be done to get my tags renewed. Switching maps every year to get it e-checked is a pain in the butt. Risking not passing on the stock tune because I fried my cats is also not appealing to me (many after market calibrators disable the catalyst temp safeties an lean out the top end for more power), nor is it appealing to have to go back to the stock tune for a few weeks to complete a drive cycle prior to e-check. I'd rather have it e-missions legal since it is primarily a street car.
5. Data logging and data analysis with correctly set up PID's. No messing around with custom PID's or having to worry weather the tuner got the conversions correct. I can use my laptop and OBDII interface to get all the data I need for trouble shooting.
6. Adjust for gear ratios and tire sizes with the Ford Performance software.
7. Four options: Power Packs 1, 2, 3. Ford / Roush Super Charger Kit for FI, also warrantied.

Ford Performance Cons:
1. No portable data logger with flashy lights and graphs that allow you to obsess more about what the engine is doing than driving you car.
2. Upgrade path is nil. You get what you get.
3. No E85, 2018 Intake Manifold, Long Tube Headers or Nitrous
4. No specific tuning for your specific car / fuel, however this has very limited benefits because the ECU calibration is already highly self adaptive. It will adjust about as much as you can automatically vs. a more fixed function tune tailored to your application, however there may be very small gains of a few HP on pump gas over what Ford Performance is offering in a few cases.

I've made my arguments, so take it for what it is worth. Each has it's merits and customs tunes / configurations certainly have their place, but it's a matter of what offers the best overall package for the application and I'm seeing no benefits of after market tunes on pump gas setups based mostly around an intake and exhaust upgrade with a custom calibration. The Ford Performance offerings are really hard to beat as a whole system in that category.

 

[ripto]

On my previous car, a Focus, I had an intake and exhaust on it and I had it tuned by Tom Lesperance with SCT. This was all done remotely as he was in one of the Carolinas and I'm in CT. The entire process was just a pain to deal with. Datalogging was a hassle using a latop and sending him specific runs, and problems were often difficult to reproduce during logging which made it hard to get a fix for. I had my motorcycle dyno tuned locally and it was a much better experience, but he only really adjusted AFR and fuel cells.

Are you guys doing these tunes remotely via datalogging and emailing them to the tuner and getting a new file back?

 

[Zelek]

On my previous car, a Focus, I had an intake and exhaust on it and I had it tuned by Tom Lesperance with SCT. This was all done remotely as he was in one of the Carolinas and I'm in CT. The entire process was just a pain to deal with. Datalogging was a hassle using a latop and sending him specific runs, and problems were often difficult to reproduce during logging which made it hard to get a fix for. I had my motorcycle dyno tuned locally and it was a much better experience, but he only really adjusted AFR and fuel cells.

Are you guys doing these tunes remotely via datalogging and emailing them to the tuner and getting a new file back?

It's simple and painless with the Ngauge. No laptop needed in car. Datalog, take Ngauge to computer, grab file from the SD card, email off, receive new tune. Rinse and repeat.

I had to datalog with Ecutek with my laptop on my FR-S. That was more of a pain for sure, but doable.

 

[erod730]

After market tuners do not re-map all 2,400 cells in their "tweaked" tunes, they don't use data packs their cars to get cycle by cycle data and their tuning is based on averaging at 1/25th to 1/37th of the actual data because OBDII can't report anywhere near cycle by cycle. Ever heard of aliasing? Aliasing in signal analysis is a condition where a higher frequency signal exists than your polling interval. And if the phase relationship between the measured signal and the instrumentation taking the measurements (aka sampling) is not synchronized, then the measurements are blind to important points in the measured signal that may never be seen. The engine may tolerate those conditions for a limited time, 50k, 75k etc. before it prematurely fails. This is exactly why there are so many after market tuned cars that don't make it on pump gas. The failure rates are really high with boosted cars, NA engines are more tolerant.

Each of these tables values are used in different driving conditions, rpm ranges, loads and on varying fuel quality. They simply aren't as well done as the Ford Performance offerings. I'm not arguing at all that a bit more power can be had in a few cases by trying to tweak out that last 5 hp for the fuel quality in your area or your particular car, but on the same fuel with similar hardware, they aren't putting out anything more than what Ford Performance is on their pump gas tunes. This is why I suggested go after market for E85, Long Tube Headers, FI, 2018 intake manifold conversion, Nitrous or other power adders Ford Performance doesn't cover if you want more than what pump gas, CAI, tune and exhaust can give you. But 99% of owners on this forum don't go past the basic trifecta and most also run pump gas.

Regarding your commends on octane learn, if their calibrations where using octane learn, then why can't you run 91 on a 93 tune...because they don't have octane learn. Octane learn is different than timing advance. Octane learn allows the ECU to figure out the fuel grade and automatically switch maps for the fuel grade. Ford Performance uses the OE approach of allowing the ECU to figure out the fuel octane over a specific set of driving conditions and automatically switch timing and fueling maps. I'm not aware of any after market calibrators doing that, you have to re-program the ECU manually. I'm not into flashing my ECU constantly to switch fuel grades. I run 93 most of the time, but sometimes I travel and I can throw 91 in the tank, the ECU switches maps for me. These calibrators are also NOT doing full engine tear downs to check for abnormal wear or contaminant buildup...they assume everything is copacetic. They do NOT perform endurance testing, Ford Performance puts their cars through endurance testing on the track, again another durability validation.

They also offer you NO warranty. So if you crack a piston, spin a bearing or bend a rod, even if it wasn't the calibrator's fault, such as a latent Ford production defect, you S.O.L. and footing the bill. You have to weigh the risks. I've seen several F-150 guys on the F-150 forums that were tuned run into big issues down the road after 50k-100k. Their trucks ran fine up to that point, but over time things wear out and abnormal stresses can cause premature failures that would have been covered under normal powertrain or extended warranties. Weather the issues were caused by the calibration or not is irrelevant, they foot the bill regardless. There are plenty of instaces of defective 5.0's that were bone stock that ended up being replaced for re-built due to manufacturing defects, go over to the issues / TSB's section and see for yourself. So for people who can afford the worst case scenario which is an engine tear down and re-build ON THEIR DIME, no car for at least a month or two, go after market, have at it. Or if you want more than an intake, exhaust and calibration can give you on pump gas.

But for those who use their car as a secondary or DD and are still paying on it, it's not worth the risk for a few HP on pump gas. How dumb would it be to trash an engine or pay for a Ford manufacturing defect on a car you don't even own and for what, 5~10 hp? In fact many of the pump gas tunes I've seen when the only other modifications are intake and exhaust, similar to Power Pack 2, are making less average power than Ford Performance. There's more to a fast car than peak power and having a broad torque band can more than make up for a small difference in peak power as well, Power Packs are hard to beat in that regard.

Ford Performance Pros:
1. Makes about as much power as you can with just a CAI and ECU Calibration on pump gas. Also offers Power Pack 3 with the GT350 intake manifold if you want big top end power.
2. Fully covered under warranty. Even after 36 k / 3y, failures not related to the Ford Performance modifications ARE warrantied as per the language. I had a catalytic converter go out just a few months ago (passenger side). While I was under my 36k mileage limit (bumper to bumper), I was over 3yrs since the date of manufacture of my car, so it was billed under my 100k / 7yr extended warranty the car came with as a Ford Used Certified car. Emissions systems normally are not covered under the 60k / 5yr to my knowledge and are only required by law to be warrantied for 2 years, 24k miles minimum. Some offer more, but that is the mandated minimum.
3. Octane learn, you can run 91, 92, 93+, the ECU will switch maps automatically based on fuel detection.
4. Emissions legal. This is big for me because my car is not old enough to be considered a historical vehicle (emissions exempt) and I have mandatory E-check in my area that MUST be done to get my tags renewed. Switching maps every year to get it e-checked is a pain in the butt. Risking not passing on the stock tune because I fried my cats is also not appealing to me (many after market calibrators disable the catalyst temp safeties an lean out the top end for more power), nor is it appealing to have to go back to the stock tune for a few weeks to complete a drive cycle prior to e-check. I'd rather have it e-missions legal since it is primarily a street car.
5. Data logging and data analysis with correctly set up PID's. No messing around with custom PID's or having to worry weather the tuner got the conversions correct. I can use my laptop and OBDII interface to get all the data I need for trouble shooting.
6. Adjust for gear ratios and tire sizes with the Ford Performance software.
7. Four options: Power Packs 1, 2, 3. Ford / Roush Super Charger Kit for FI, also warrantied.

Ford Performance Cons:
1. No portable data logger with flashy lights and graphs that allow you to obsess more about what the engine is doing than driving you car.
2. Upgrade path is nil. You get what you get.
3. No E85, 2018 Intake Manifold, Long Tube Headers or Nitrous
4. No specific tuning for your specific car / fuel, however this has very limited benefits because the ECU calibration is already highly self adaptive. It will adjust about as much as you can automatically vs. a more fixed function tune tailored to your application, however there may be very small gains of a few HP on pump gas over what Ford Performance is offering in a few cases.

I've made my arguments, so take it for what it is worth. Each has it's merits and customs tunes / configurations certainly have their place, but it's a matter of what offers the best overall package for the application and I'm seeing no benefits of after market tunes on pump gas setups based mostly around an intake and exhaust upgrade with a custom calibration. The Ford Performance offerings are really hard to beat as a whole system in that category.

Well said , so I'm one of those guys that just going to do basic bolt ons , so I'm better off just buying the FPPP2 and staying away from custom tunes unless I want to go forced induction, or E85 tune? Currently on my 17 gt just xpipe with magaflow exhaust.

 

[TheLion70x77]

That would be my advice, especially if you care at all about warranty or long term reliability and are on pump gas, it's by far the least risky option. Drive ability is going to be impressively OE like as well. Power Pack 2 is geared more towards road course (aka short or mid-sized tracks) / street while Power Pack 3 is set up more for high speed / big tracks where you can stretch it's long legs out and use it's big top end power. Power Pack 3 would also be the better option for roll racing if that's your cup of tea. Very linear torque band in Power Pack 3 also makes it easier to drive the car at its limits on anything where your going left or right if you know what I mean.

Power Pack 2 is roughly equivalent to the 5th Gen LT1 6.2L in the latest Camaros / Corvettes, just with a power band shifted 500 rpm higher in rev range (e.g. take a 2016+ Camaro SS dyno and move it 500 RPM up and that's roughly a Power Pack 2). Power Pack 3 is more like an enhanced Boss 302 power band (Road Runner 5.0), climbing continually as you go up through the rev ranges and revving all the way out to 7450 rpm, but lacking some of mid-range punch of the Power Pack 2 / Chevy 5th Gen LT1's. Broad mid-range or big top end.

Ultimately Power Pack 3 makes about 10~15 hp MORE on average than Power Pack 2 or a stock LT1, but you need to rev it out to get there. If you don't track your car at all or not much, Power Pack 2 is the better option, especially given how affordable it is. If you plan on tracking it, Power Pack 3 is going to give you the most the 2nd Gen 5.0 can offer on pump gas and stock internals / stock headers, but it is pricey.

Power Pack 2 ranges about $600 while Power Pack 3 costs about $1600 because it uses the GT350 intake manifold, throttle body and CAI with the Ford Performance calibration. Power Pack 2 still uses the stock intake manifold and only replaces the throttle body, intake tube and CAI with the GT350 ones. Basically Power Pack 3 is giving you big top end by using an intake manifold tuned for better flow at high RPM's and utilizing the high flow capabilities already build into the valves, valve springs, cams and heads of the factory 2nd gen 5.0's. They were over built on purpose to allow for Ford Performance Power Packs. This isn't some cosmic accident, but intentional forward thinking and Ford Performance spend two years in development of these Power Packs. It's just an extremely well put together package from top to bottom.

I'm betting because your profile shows a convertible 2017 GT, it's more of a street car than a track toy, so Power Pack 2 is probably your best option especially at it's price point.

 

[2morrow]

My first tune was a Ford Performance Power Pack 2 with all its upgraded parts. Not bad results and a good value. I had to go back and forth with FP for a Beta tune update which was well documented here on the forums. It fixed several issues and other forum members got taken care of too.

My second tune was through PBD and I have both a 91 and e85 tune to compliment the LU47's Ported 350 IM, TB and CAI. I also got boundary OPG and CS so that I can do this...



I thoroughly enjoyed that.

I had all the work done at Paramount Speed in Chico, CA. Great Shop with EXCELLENT Customer Service.

 

[BmacIL]

Please do, would love to see that it’s possible. Did you have to go back and forth on tune revisions to get the O2, HO2 and CAT to go green?

See pic below

 

[J.P.B.]

FWIW, I recently installed a Steeda tune and CAI on my GT. I thought about things for a while; here are my reasons for choosing the Steeda tune bundle, which is conservative.

Background: Mine is a dual purpose car: for both road course events, and street driving in the warm weather. Until the tune, my mods were about chassis, suspension, brakes & tires. Until very recently I raced motorcycles; due to my track-bike background, my focus is finding my limits, and making incremental and consistent improvements in skills.

My reasons for a conservative tune...

1. The limits of my car are well in excess of all kinds of responsible (or even irresponsible) street driving. An aggressive tune won't change the fun factor all that much for me on the street.

2. There are still considerable time-reductions to be had through improving my skills (and I am not slow, by any means). I don't expect to benefit much from an aggressive tune on the road course at this point.

3. There have been times when I thought I could exploit just a little more torque on exit from a turn, so I was looking for just a little more mid-range torque. (But, full-disclosure, I could/should just work on carrying more speed.)

4. The Steeda tune + CAI bundle gives me a conservative tune, improved torque where I hope to use it most, and a pathway for future upgrades.

5. At some point I do anticipate further engine mods, and the tuning device included in the package gives me that option.

FYI: The improved mid-range torque is noticeable while driving on the street.

In the end it's all about personal preferences. I hope this was helpful.

If anyone is interested in an actual review of the tune, I can write it up. I have dyno sheets before and after (corrected). Unfortunately, the dyno sessions were not back-to-back, and the conditions were very different. I will be able to give a road course review by the end of May.

Sponsored