Sponsored

Socialism good or bad?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Docscurlock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Threads
17
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
780
Location
Florida
First Name
Doc
Vehicle(s)
2020 GT500, 2019 Roushcharged F150, 2016 GT350R, 2013 Boss 302LS, 2009 GT/CS, 2000 Cobra R, 1995 Cobra R
Vehicle Showcase
2
Oh I took note of that some time ago, thus the continued discussion. I also don't trust them. Unfortunately we're all in a position where we have to pick who we distrust the least. I just tend to favor those who are less owned by those they are expected to govern or regulate, i.e. NOT putting a oil and gas executive or prominent lobbyist in charge of the EPA, or a wall street thug in charge of the Treasury.

If you and I were given the opportunity to decide things like this, I would propose looking at every type of program or service that is in the interest of the population, and do analysis on where best said thing would be most effective. Some would certainly be better at the state or local level for efficiency and/or flexibility. Some may be better at the national level for interests of commonality between states, resources we all share, or simply economies of scale that allow for less overall costs, thus taxes.

No disagreement that the US government should be responsible for defense, foreign relations, border security and enforcement, and trade.
One thing that is a common problem with our government is career politicians. As I have had these open discussions I am realizing that federal term limits for both parties would help fix a lot of our problems. I think citizens from both ends of the political spectrum could get on board with this. There are career politicians on both sides of the aisle who are amassing a huge amount of power by being in their position for many years. If we had 2 term, term limits, there would not be as much benefit for huge government behometh programs that take over our lives because sitting congresspeople know they will be back out in the world in a few years. What are your thoughts?
Sponsored

 

BmacIL

Enginerd
Joined
Sep 21, 2014
Threads
69
Messages
15,010
Reaction score
8,920
Location
Naperville, IL
Vehicle(s)
2015 Guard GT Base, M/T
Vehicle Showcase
1
One thing that is a common problem with our government is career politicians. As I have had these open discussions I am realizing that federal term limits for both parties would help fix a lot of our problems. I think citizens from both ends of the political spectrum could get on board with this. There are career politicians on both sides of the aisle who are amassing a huge amount of power by being in their position for many years. If we had 2 term, term limits, there would not be as much benefit for huge government behometh programs that take over our lives because sitting congresspeople know they will be back out in the world in a few years. What are your thoughts?
Agreed 100%, though perhaps 3-4 for the House. Senate, definitely two terms.
 
OP
OP
Grintch

Grintch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Threads
15
Messages
1,892
Reaction score
792
Location
Hunstville
Vehicle(s)
2015 GT PP
Mate, you can't talk sense to the right wing Americans here. They are doubly damned. Firstly by the fact that they believe that everyone is out to get them, and secondly by the fact that they were born American and they still live in America.

You know Americans who live in Canada, and I know Americans who live in Australia. These people have had their eyes opened to other possibilities. Since we're talking about healthcare, here's some interesting info. America is dead last:

https://fr.april-international.com/.../which-countries-have-best-healthcare-systems


1. United Kingdom

2. Australia

3. Netherlands

4. New Zealand and Norway

6. Switzerland and Sweden

8. Germany

9. Canada

10. France

11. USA
How is 11th dead last? Aren't there about 200 countries? Where are those great socialist countries like Russia, China, and North Korea on the list?

I can't comment on how well socialized medicine works in other countries. But every time the US government gets involved with health care, the cost goes up. And often the quality goes down.

When did health care costs start outracing inflation? When the government got involved in the 1960's and established the Medicare and Medicare programs. Programs that have been over budget since day one. And aren't known for particularly good care.

Just look at the last move in the direction of socialized medicine. The AFFORDABLE Care Act, which made care LESS affordable for the vast majority of Americans.

If you want to spend a lot of money on something put the government in charge. If you want something to be cost efficient, don't let the government anywhere near it.

Level 3 Certified Government Acquisition Professional.
 

Jimmy G

Hangin' about, waitin'..
Joined
May 21, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
639
Reaction score
324
Location
Australia
Vehicle(s)
'19 Bullitt
How is 11th dead last? Aren't there about 200 countries? Where are those great socialist countries like Russia, China, and North Korea on the list?

I can't comment on how well socialized medicine works in other countries. But every time the US government gets involved with health care, the cost goes up. And often the quality goes down.

When did health care costs start outracing inflation? When the government got involved in the 1960's and established the Medicare and Medicare programs. Programs that have been over budget since day one. And aren't known for particularly good care.

Just look at the last move in the direction of socialized medicine. The AFFORDABLE Care Act, which made care LESS affordable for the vast majority of Americans.

If you want to spend a lot of money on something put the government in charge. If you want something to be cost efficient, don't let the government anywhere near it.

Level 3 Certified Government Acquisition Professional.

Sigh.

Eleventh is dead last. On that list. As determined by the group that made it. You'd see that if you clicked the link. It's a list of countries that are ahead of the USA. Are you happy coming eleventh? Don't you want to be on the podium?

You then go on to slag off the USA government and say they can't run healthcare. Well hello, that's why the USA is last!

All these other countries above you on the list have socialized healthcare and they can make it work....why can't the great USA do it? You put men on the moon ffs.
 

Sponsored

Jimmy G

Hangin' about, waitin'..
Joined
May 21, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
639
Reaction score
324
Location
Australia
Vehicle(s)
'19 Bullitt
Oh hang on, I know how to fix it.

You should vote in the greatest deal maker of all time. The guy who is an ace businessman who isn't a regular dumb politician like all who came before him. Someone who can use his unbelievable business acumen and his legendary gut instinct to forge a deal with Congress and launch the USA to the top of that list....
 

Anthony 05 GT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2015
Threads
21
Messages
1,453
Reaction score
490
Location
Northern Harford County Maryland
Vehicle(s)
2005 Mustang GT, 2015 Mustang GT Premium
11th because people have become stupid, complacent assholes. It's all the laziness and big brother government offering just enough help to keep these people coming back. All the uninsured fools going to the emergency room for a common cold with no insurance. I've watched what has been happening to our country. The US has always had the ability to be the best at most everything because of the influences from all of our different sources or origin around the world. It's the left and it's precious government programs and the willing media who have begun to destroy this amazing country. In addition to that, losing our religion is another cancer that spreads.
 

90Notch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2018
Threads
18
Messages
258
Reaction score
219
Location
Houston
First Name
Dave
Vehicle(s)
2018 Silver GT PP1 A10
Oh hang on, I know how to fix it.

You should vote in the greatest deal maker of all time. The guy who is an ace businessman who isn't a regular dumb politician like all who came before him. Someone who can use his unbelievable business acumen and his legendary gut instinct to forge a deal with Congress and launch the USA to the top of that list....
You can't "forge a deal" with people in Congress that are so opposed to you that they would argue 2+2=5 if you said it was 4, even though they know you are right. Besides, the majority of tax-paying Americans don't trust the government to take more of our money in order to provide "free" medical services. The rest are ignorant or apathetic.
 

Jimmy G

Hangin' about, waitin'..
Joined
May 21, 2018
Threads
16
Messages
639
Reaction score
324
Location
Australia
Vehicle(s)
'19 Bullitt
You can't "forge a deal" with people in Congress that are so opposed to you that they would argue 2+2=5 if you said it was 4, even though they know you are right. Besides, the majority of tax-paying Americans don't trust the government to take more of our money in order to provide "free" medical services. The rest are ignorant or apathetic.
He's the worlds best deal maker. He says so.

Should be easy for him to wrap them around his tiny fingers and do the deal.
 

Docscurlock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Threads
17
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
780
Location
Florida
First Name
Doc
Vehicle(s)
2020 GT500, 2019 Roushcharged F150, 2016 GT350R, 2013 Boss 302LS, 2009 GT/CS, 2000 Cobra R, 1995 Cobra R
Vehicle Showcase
2
Some interesting numbers about GDP of the nations we were compared to for healthcare, numbers published by International Monetary Fund
GDP
20.5 trillion US

2.8 trillion UK about the size of California by itself
1.4 trillion Australia about the size of New York
0.9 trillion Netherlands about the size of Florida
0.2 trillion NZ about the size of Alabama (ouch)
0.4 trillion Norway - Maryland
0.7 trillion Switzerland - Pennsylvania
0.5 trillion Sweden - Georgia
4 trillion Germany - Texas and California combined
1.7 trillion Canada - texas
2.7 trillion France - California

What makes anyone think that socialized medicine that works for these countries would work in the US. Its like comparing a Chevy Volt to a new GT500. Let's see, NATO allies in there, UK, Germany, France, Canada, Netherlands, Norway. Message from the US to our NATO allies: You're Welcome.
Defense spending by Nato Allies:
https___blogs-images.forbes.com_niallmccarthy_files_2018_07_20180710_NATO_Expenditure-3.jpg

Wow, if Germany spent every cent of it's GDP on defense, they would spend 2/3 what we do.
 
Last edited:

Sponsored

Docscurlock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Threads
17
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
780
Location
Florida
First Name
Doc
Vehicle(s)
2020 GT500, 2019 Roushcharged F150, 2016 GT350R, 2013 Boss 302LS, 2009 GT/CS, 2000 Cobra R, 1995 Cobra R
Vehicle Showcase
2
We already spend more per capita on health than any of those other countries. https://www.healthsystemtracker.org...lth-u-s-spends-disproportionate-amount-health

"On average, other wealthy countries spend about half as much per person on health than the U.S. spends"

This is the freakin problem here, healthcare costs are too much in the US, thats what we have to fix.
"While the U.S. has similar public spending, its private sector spending is triple that of comparable countries"

Socialized medicine will destroy this country if we don't cut the costs.
0006_health-care-oecd-full.gif
 

Docscurlock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Threads
17
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
780
Location
Florida
First Name
Doc
Vehicle(s)
2020 GT500, 2019 Roushcharged F150, 2016 GT350R, 2013 Boss 302LS, 2009 GT/CS, 2000 Cobra R, 1995 Cobra R
Vehicle Showcase
2
I know, let's just do "medicare for all".
KEY TAKEAWAYS
The Medicare Trustees note that Medicare spending will grow faster than workers’ wages, the general economy and other health spending.

For the second consecutive year, the trustees project that Medicare will have to draw 45 percent of its money from general funds within seven years.

The Heritage Foundation suggests that Congress gradually raise the normal age of Medicare eligibility to 67 and reduce the taxpayer subsidies.

The Medicare Trustees report the program’s Hospital Insurance trust fund is spending billions more than it takes in. In just eight years, they estimate, the fund will be insolvent. At that point, the account will decline, and the trustees warn, “Beneficiary access to health care services could rapidly be curtailed.”

Yeah Bernie! Sign me up! Bernie! Bernie! Bernie!
 

CAL Captain

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Threads
13
Messages
668
Reaction score
409
Location
Arroyo Grande, CA
Vehicle(s)
2019 Bullitt Mustang
Doc, just thank the marxists who've taken over our public indoctrination system for creating several generations of complete ignorance (aoc is a shining example). These people cannot connect simple cause and effect, cannot figure out that 50% of the people don't pay taxes but get to vote on how those taxes are redistributed to them, and actually think that if the govt gives them something for free, nobody had that money taken from them.

MEDICARE FOR ALL!!! YAY!!!
 

Caballus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2016
Threads
43
Messages
3,651
Reaction score
2,094
Location
Europe
Vehicle(s)
GT350
Stats are not very useful without context:

About 44% of Americans don’t pay income tax. Of that about half don’t make enough money to owe taxes and the other half don’t pay because of aggregate tax exemptions (combat pay, for example, is tax exempt up to the max that an E9 would earn). One way to eliminate the disparity is to replace the progressive tax scheme with a flat tax, but that has never gained traction. Most who don’t pay income tax do pay payroll taxes (social security, etc) as well as property tax, sales tax, etc. So, it would be unrealistic to assume that it would be possible to link voting to taxation or that doing so would somehow be more fair than the current system.

GDP comparisons. Many of the nations with GDPs that compare to our states have populations that compare to our cities. On one hand, that reinforces the Chevy Volt vs. GT500 point. On the other hand, the nations with populations the size of our cities still have national level responsibilities and functions to fulfill. As good as we are, are there are lessons we can learn from their ability to fulfill those responsibilities with relative efficiency and constantly be rated among the “happiest” places in the world to live.

Defense spending. Secretary Gates was right in his June 2011 farewell speech when he called the Allies out for not meeting the agreed spending targets. He was also right we he recognized 2% is not the end all be all: “For example, though some smaller NATO members have modestly sized and funded militaries that do not meet the 2 percent threshold, several of these allies have managed to punch well above their weight because of the way they use the resources they have. In the Libya operation, Norway and Denmark, have provided 12 percent of allied strike aircraft yet have struck about one third of the targets. Belgium and Canada are also making major contributions to the strike mission. These countries have, with their constrained resources, found ways to do the training, buy the equipment, and field the platforms necessary to make a credible military contribution.”

The Allies are investing blood treasure and bleed alongside us everyday.

Secretary Mattis also hit the nail on the head when he was rallying the Allies to do more about Russia: “you cannot expect American parents to care more about your children’s future than you care.” But he also realized that when you factor in force contributions, access rights, absorption capacity…the 2% can quickly become a hollow target. We get more out of the Allies than what is advertised—the ability to be in a world class hospital (Landstuhl) within hours of having the snot blown out of you in Iraq, Syria, or Afghanistan is a single example.

None of that really makes the point about healthcare back home. The stat that matters there is that without any further redistribution of wealth we already spend twice as much on healthcare as any other nation, but our access and overall services don’t reflect that. So, the challenge to our elected officials, healthcare professionals and insurance companies is to figure out how to address that issue without spending more money--or taking more money out of taxpayers' pockets.
 

Docscurlock

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Threads
17
Messages
1,472
Reaction score
780
Location
Florida
First Name
Doc
Vehicle(s)
2020 GT500, 2019 Roushcharged F150, 2016 GT350R, 2013 Boss 302LS, 2009 GT/CS, 2000 Cobra R, 1995 Cobra R
Vehicle Showcase
2
Stats are not very useful without context:

About 44% of Americans don’t pay income tax. Of that about half don’t make enough money to owe taxes and the other half don’t pay because of aggregate tax exemptions (combat pay, for example, is tax exempt up to the max that an E9 would earn). One way to eliminate the disparity is to replace the progressive tax scheme with a flat tax, but that has never gained traction. Most who don’t pay income tax do pay payroll taxes (social security, etc) as well as property tax, sales tax, etc. So, it would be unrealistic to assume that it would be possible to link voting to taxation or that doing so would somehow be more fair than the current system.

GDP comparisons. Many of the nations with GDPs that compare to our states have populations that compare to our cities. On one hand, that reinforces the Chevy Volt vs. GT500 point. On the other hand, the nations with populations the size of our cities still have national level responsibilities and functions to fulfill. As good as we are, are there are lessons we can learn from their ability to fulfill those responsibilities with relative efficiency and constantly be rated among the “happiest” places in the world to live.

Defense spending. Secretary Gates was right in his June 2011 farewell speech when he called the Allies out for not meeting the agreed spending targets. He was also right we he recognized 2% is not the end all be all: “For example, though some smaller NATO members have modestly sized and funded militaries that do not meet the 2 percent threshold, several of these allies have managed to punch well above their weight because of the way they use the resources they have. In the Libya operation, Norway and Denmark, have provided 12 percent of allied strike aircraft yet have struck about one third of the targets. Belgium and Canada are also making major contributions to the strike mission. These countries have, with their constrained resources, found ways to do the training, buy the equipment, and field the platforms necessary to make a credible military contribution.”

The Allies are investing blood treasure and bleed alongside us everyday.

Secretary Mattis also hit the nail on the head when he was rallying the Allies to do more about Russia: “you cannot expect American parents to care more about your children’s future than you care.” But he also realized that when you factor in force contributions, access rights, absorption capacity…the 2% can quickly become a hollow target. We get more out of the Allies than what is advertised—the ability to be in a world class hospital (Landstuhl) within hours of having the snot blown out of you in Iraq, Syria, or Afghanistan is a single example.

None of that really makes the point about healthcare back home. The stat that matters there is that without any further redistribution of wealth we already spend twice as much on healthcare as any other nation, but our access and overall services don’t reflect that. So, the challenge to our elected officials, healthcare professionals and insurance companies is to figure out how to address that issue without spending more money--or taking more money out of taxpayers' pockets.
"GDP comparisons. Many of the nations with GDPs that compare to our states have populations that compare to our cities. On one hand, that reinforces the Chevy Volt vs. GT500 point. On the other hand, the nations with populations the size of our cities still have national level responsibilities and functions to fulfill. As good as we are, are there are lessons we can learn from their ability to fulfill those responsibilities with relative efficiency and constantly be rated among the “happiest” places in the world to live." The point being that for people from these other countries to step up and say why can't we do what they are doing is ridiculous. The sheer scope and size of a socialized medicine program in this country should alone make it an impossibility. Skynet (from the Terminator movie) wouldn't be able to compute the accounts receivable and payable on a nationwide medicare system. If we could control costs our current system would work better. Our government is never good at controlling costs. Can you even imagine the cost of government staffing to run medicare for all? Even the Obamacare website was a disaster for people.

"Defense spending. " I never made the argument that other countries don't spend money on defense, they just don't spend enough. That's where they get extra money for pie in the sky social programs. Problem for us is we pay the tab for their lack of spending.

"None of that really makes the point about healthcare back home. The stat that matters there is that without any further redistribution of wealth we already spend twice as much on healthcare as any other nation, but our access and overall services don’t reflect that. So, the challenge to our elected officials, healthcare professionals and insurance companies is to figure out how to address that issue without spending more money--or taking more money out of taxpayers' pockets."

Do we go to the hospital twice as much as the average Canadian or Norwegian? Do you realize we spend twice as much as a country on healthcare and most of our expenditure isn't even counted there because most of our spending is through private insurance and out of pocket. The problem is, our healthcare costs over twice as much to buy. Whether the money comes from our own pockets, insurance companies or through a complete government run single payer system the fact is it costs too much. We have to fix that. Headline from Fox News today says Bernie's medicare for all will cost every family $20k more in taxes. Who can afford that? As you stated above 44% of Americans don't pay federal income tax, some even get more money back than was withheld from them. So that leaves the extra $20k in the hands of the 56% of people who do pay, so the total is more like $38k for each. It would destroy our economy. And for all you NATO allies and others, where our economy goes, so does yours.
Sponsored

 
Status
Not open for further replies.
 




Top