FYI: Coyote 5.0 Plasma Transfer Wire Arc cylinder liners

[BmacIL]

Mr. Bmac, not been ignorant at all with forum members and it doesn't make me feel good. You cannot possibly tell me that you never had a product that you thought was not tested enough. And I apologize to you and others that got hurt feelings with the 'test hogs' comment. I thought it was better than guinea pig.

Oh I have, but I've also experienced first hand what Ford and other OEMs do for powertrain validation (particularly on regular, non Ford Performance products). Relative to this discussion, it doesn't apply. They're extremely thoroughly tested. The manufacturing process quality may not be up to par, however, which is very different despite resulting in the same unhappiness. I feel people's pain on this issue.

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[TomcatDriver]

You do realize that you're not the one to make that distinction if the dealer / Ford want to deny the warranty claim, right? They won't care to discuss subtlety at all. If they decide to deny the claim, they'll tell you that the "competition" condition covers participating in races and "racing track use" means just what it says - using it on a "racing track" whether it's in competition or not. You've got nowhere to go after that. Sure, "I'll sue" is the emotional reaction, but from a realistic standpoint, the cost of a lawyer and the time to actually do so is prohibitive.

Why does everyone think the dealer is spring-loaded to try to deny a claim? Some might be, but they are getting paid by Ford to do the work, so why would they care? How would they know unless you told them (assuming you didn't have Ford pick up the car broken down on the race track). In some (most?) states the manufacture doesn't get any discount on warranty repairs. They are paying the same price you are. Now Ford may want to deny a claim, but my experience is that dealers are more than happy to do warranty repairs.

 

[Zooks527]

Why does everyone think the dealer is spring-loaded to try to deny a claim? Some might be, but they are getting paid by Ford to do the work, so why would they care? How would they know unless you told them (assuming you didn't have Ford pick up the car broken down on the race track). In some (most?) states the manufacture doesn't get any discount on warranty repairs. They are paying the same price you are. Now Ford may want to deny a claim, but my experience is that dealers are more than happy to do warranty repairs.

No one said they want to (thus the qualifier "if" in the first sentence). Rather, as the post was in response to someone who said there's no way Ford or a dealer could try to deny a claim for track use, I was showing a way they could.

Regarding past experience, I've found dealers are happy to do a warranty repair up to a certain price point, after which they ask the manufacturer for permission first. Ford replaced the engine in my wife's Sable 20 years or so ago, but the dealer couldn't do it until it had been pre-approved.

 

[MachMachine]

When I say there are people who mistaking DI/HPFP noise for something more serious, I am not talking about Internet videos. I am talking about the owners who are in my local Mustang group. Hell, 90% of them who own a 2018 read about ticks, rattles, etc. on Facebook or the forums and immediately think their car is going to blow up because it makes more noise than they are used to with their old 302s, 4.6s or even early Coyotes.

Again, for the umpteenth time, I am not discounting the fact that there have been some serious issues. I am not convinced that it is nearly as widespread as all the Internet hysteria would make it seem but there have clearly been something going on with some of the Gen 3s.

Then you must be one of the lucky ones my 2018 F150 5.0 rattles like crazy in between shifts as the engine unloads forget about the tick at idle and to who ever may have this rattle try this lock out the transmission so it won’t shift pass third gear on a flat road with no traffic bring engine speed up to about 2000-2150 slightly lift off throttle and don’t let the rpm drop or exceed the rpm above and listen for the rattle I can make mine almost rattle continuously and yes it’s full of oil and always has been and I have run AMSOIL Sygniture 5w-20 after first oil change truck only has 22000 km on it apparently the engines are graded one threw three in regards to clyinder dimensions and the appropriate piston is selected for this bore diameter to achieve the correct piston to wall and the ducked up putting the wrong ones in and creating a piston slap I will post a video I found online from a machinist

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Does putting the car in the provided Drag Mode with all the changes FORD makes to the engine and trans tune, primarily shift firmness and raised shift points, along with advanced trac off, another function of the car provided by Ford...not implicitly imply they have designed and implemented modes to be used by the end user for their enjoyment in "Drag Scenarios", I'm not sure how any reasonable 12 people could come to the conclusion a sports car with an easily selectable and marketed DRAG STRIP TREE icon on the dash indicator are expected to not use the mode, and if the mode isn't supposed to be used at the track then are they encouraging street racing? And if it's not supposed to be used at all or any damage incurred by the 5000hrs they spent implementing and tuning that selectable mode, is deemed to void the warranty; then why doesn't it say ( like so many other warnings say for Android Auto ) when you select it " drag mode voids warranty are you sure you want to proceed"? Why is the end user provided a drag race mode with a drag strip tree icon then told they cant use it....that's shit is absolutely batshit crazy when you think about it....you want the marketing boost from having since cars like the Demon and now 1320 scat pack come with trans brakes and axles ect and are in full warranty racing ( I ordered a 1320 and was directly told this no mods and I can drop the trans brake on the factory drag radials every weekend if I want ) it's kinda like Ford wanted to compete but then on the back end doesn't want to live up to the marketing with the support side when the feature is used? How does any competent lawyer loose that case lol

Cars can be "abused" on the streets too. Ford would have to prove it was caused by "abuse" or a "track event". "Racing tracks" do exist in "Mexico".

 

[GT Pony]

Does putting the car in the provided Drag Mode with all the changes FORD makes to the engine and trans tune, primarily shift firmness and raised shift points, along with advanced trac off, another function of the car provided by Ford...not implicitly imply they have designed and implemented modes to be used by the end user for their enjoyment in "Drag Scenarios", I'm not sure how any reasonable 12 people could come to the conclusion a sports car with an easily selectable and marketed DRAG STRIP TREE icon on the dash indicator are expected to not use the mode, and if the mode isn't supposed to be used at the track then are they encouraging street racing? And if it's not supposed to be used at all or any damage incurred by the 5000hrs they spent implementing and tuning that selectable mode, is deemed to void the warranty; then why doesn't it say ( like so many other warnings say for Android Auto ) when you select it " drag mode voids warranty are you sure you want to proceed"? Why is the end user provided a drag race mode with a drag strip tree icon then told they cant use it....that's shit is absolutely batshit crazy when you think about it....you want the marketing boost from having since cars like the Demon and now 1320 scat pack come with trans brakes and axles ect and are in full warranty racing ( I ordered a 1320 and was directly told this no mods and I can drop the trans brake on the factory drag radials every weekend if I want ) it's kinda like Ford wanted to compete but then on the back end doesn't want to live up to the marketing with the support side when the feature is used? How does any competent lawyer loose that case lol

Look at the Ford warranty language - here are snip-its from the 2019 warranty booklet (available on-line at Ford and it came in hard copy when you bought the car). If Ford knew you were actually racing the car at a track they could certainly deny warranty. Look at other car manufacturer's warranty statements - my bet is they are worded similarly.

Like I said, Ford would have to prove it was being raced or abused. Car companies have to protect themselves with warranty statements like these or else people could buy a new car and race it every weekend for 3 years, and if it broke the car manufacturer would have to cover it under warranty. I doubt any car manufacturer wants to be doing that.

You could beat the living crap out of your car on the public street if you wanted to since it's not officially racing at a track event. But I wouldn't be surprised if Ford would somehow think it was abused or raced, and they would look for a way out of covering damage under warranty. Notice the words "abuse", "competition" and "other events" are used in the warranty language ... that leaves it open to interpretation quite a bit, even if the car is never actually on an official race track it could be abused and that's why Ford includes those words. This is what Ford would argue in court if it came down to it.

Also, we all know here that if Ford finds that the ECU has been re-flashed that pretty much becomes an automatic deny of warranty. Guess the "track apps" and line lock are to be used as a novelty feature at your own risk - lol.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

I certainly see your point, while I think with as many disclaimers as there are on everything else it should pop up an " are you sure this voids your warranty or some such" but my guess is that would sell a lot less cars....I guess where I disagree is if its bone stock sportscar not a minivan whose numbers and modes are touted in marketing yes you should be able to race it all you want if its bone stock down to tire......why even have a drag mode with tree and performance apps that actually count down like a tree....certainly they arent advocating you do that on public roads? If not then drag strip is implied....we as consumers need to stop eating the shit sandwiches we see fed and start sticking together.....
I'll push back on one other area...yes there are cars warranty for racing every weekend...and marketed as such...when I ordered my 1320...which comes with knurled wheels to prevent tire slip, drag radials upgraded shocks diff drive shaft and a trans brake from the factory only cost 45k. Runs 11.7s bone stock...I asked the salesman whom took me to the sales manager whom took me to the Manager whom took me to the service manager and they ALL agreed I could race the car every weekend as long as it was stock....full warranty.. .before the inventory manager and I sat down to pick colors ect they even called in a regional because I made a big deal out of it...and he confirmed then we ordered....I was also told the Demon was the same BUT here is the only caveat they admitted to....I could race it all I want but not class race it...meaning i could make 5 passes test n tune and aside from nostalgia style stuff I couldn't, if I understood correctly bracket race it....But its specifically in its marketed for the same price and 11.7 ET with tbrake...literally for the weekend racer....My hopes is that car will change attitudes demons were unreachable by most but 45k is the ball park of all the big 3......and really cheap when you consider it has the wheels drag radials axles and diff and demon drag suspension with a drag mode button as well as the super track pack button and performance pages.....
It's a very good full warranty weekend race car...its never gonna be as fast as my 19 A10 as easily though...and not remotely as gorgeous......
I just offer that up as we shouldnt accept rattles and failures along with the fact we just have to eat our shit sandwiches when we use our cars for what they were designed for they arent cross over suv... cause there are options that do....

Sure long tubes e85 custom tunes I get it but bone stock PP1 on stock tires should go run its 11.9s forever without much full on its summer tire with power train saving 1.9 60fts....
We accept to little out of companies these days, that said yes all us 18 up owners know Ford has no intention of standing behind our cars modified or not

 

[GT Pony]

I certainly see your point, while I think with as many disclaimers as there are on everything else it should pop up an " are you sure this voids your warranty or some such" but my guess is that would sell a lot less cars....I guess where I disagree is if its bone stock sportscar not a minivan whose numbers and modes are touted in marketing yes you should be able to race it all you want if its bone stock down to tire......why even have a drag mode with tree and performance apps that actually count down like a tree....certainly they arent advocating you do that on public roads? If not then drag strip is implied....we as consumers need to stop eating the shit sandwiches we see fed and start sticking together.....

If you were a car manufacturer paying for warranty claims you probably wouldn't have the same viewpoint.

I'll push back on one other area...yes there are cars warranty for racing every weekend...and marketed as such...when I ordered my 1320...which comes with knurled wheels to prevent tire slip, drag radials upgraded shocks diff drive shaft and a trans brake from the factory only cost 45k. Runs 11.7s bone stock...I asked the salesman whom took me to the sales manager whom took me to the Manager whom took me to the service manager and they ALL agreed I could race the car every weekend as long as it was stock....full warranty...

Did the actual warranty statement from the manufacture actually say that for that specific vehicle? Are you totally sure all the guys at the dealership were not feeding you misinformation? Could be that particular dealership was doing that on their own accord. What's the manufacturer's warranty statement actually say about racing that specific vehicle?

We accept to little out of companies these days, that said yes all us 18 up owners know Ford has no intention of standing behind our cars modified or not

I think Ford will stand behind the car if their is a legitimate issue. They pretty much shut off the warranty bleeding when they came out with the "typewriter tick is normal" TSB. Probably soon to be followed by the "2000 RPM rattle" is also "normal" TSB.

The problem with TSBs like that is even if there was a mechanical issue, most dealers are now going to say any ticking or rattling they hear is "normal" thinking that it's related to the Ford TSB when in fact it may not be and actually be a real problem going on.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

It literally says in the Dodge marketing, " we created the 1320 for the weekend bracket racer the guy that wants to drive his car to work then the track on weekends where the grassroots remains loyal" I mean marketing material alone should be enough to force reasonable repairs should the entire person to person human interaction prove to be all individual lies to my face...and a small fee to a CP lawyer if so...should be a fairly easy win they literally label it a factory drag car....
Now I could ask my Ford dealership those same questions and I wouldn't get a single yes much less 5 separate ones...lol...

Yes they didnt stand behind the gen 3 when they give a blanket TSB that will now be used as a shield to doing any work on a motor with the rods still in it vs DLCs or continued learning for their master techs where they can do some basic diagnostics then determine with their experience is it an the normal, the engine is just a really shitty sounding engine that runs good, or is it something worse...that definitely should have been left to individual dealers and one or two specially trained techs I had to correct them on how much oil it holds that's the root issue no training ahead of release.....instead it's a dent all claims fix the ones your forced to master switch that was thrown.....
My 1320 was built like a beast I doubt it will have any trouble using its factory drag suspension , drag mode, drag radials on knurled drag wheels extra extreme duty drag axles and way over built diff with its drag inspired factory trans brake......but if it did on the remote chance the big tank did start to rattle and skip gears...I would feel much better about the humans I met making the decision to initiate a repair than even good techs hands being tied by a arbitrary tsb.....cause all ticks arent equal and my God at the ones getting turned away now with the blanket statement....
I know it's big slow and ugly but I sure wish I had waited if tsb7718 had been dropped I would have...I just figured well I got a 19 so first year issues resolved....nope....and worse case they will buy it back....nope....not sure I could force a pre TSB grandfather in because I never agreed to buy a ticking car ( it wasn't at the time of purchase ) nor was the likelyhood of the noise after first oil change revealed to me up front and the fact if I am an unlucky one who develops it nothing will be done I got to live with it...which the tsb admits, revealed to me.....
They just want em to last long enough to get out of lemon law statutes because the motor replacement wasn't what was eating them up its was the buy backs under lemon law that did....

A simple disclaimer engine may make noise it doesn't make on day of purchase after first oil change and we won't cover any repairs if your one of the unlucky ones that develop it AND if you use the drag strip mode we provide you the drag strip vs illegally on the street we won't warranty the car....
See how ridiculous it is when you are given full disclosure.....if you dont want it drag raced dont provide a drag mode make people get a custom tune that voids warranty to get that feature.....if you dont want customers concerned thru real, perceived or just embarrassing ticks and rattles then bringing the car back.....it should do it when purchased or disclosed perhaps with a demo vehicle so that you can make an informed decision....
I thought if mine developed it they would take care of it so I rolled the dice before 7718, wish I had waited 5 more weeks for my 1320 to come in.....except that jesus christ does the 19 look sweet and boy to I love the a10....
I love the mustang and hate Ford that's probably not acceptable around here.....

 

[GT Pony]

It literally says in the Dodge marketing, " we created the 1320 for the weekend bracket racer the guy that wants to drive his car to work then the track on weekends where the grassroots remains loyal" I mean marketing material alone should be enough to force reasonable repairs should the entire person to person human interaction prove to be all individual lies to my face...and a small fee to a CP lawyer if so...should be a fairly easy win they literally label it a factory drag car....

Marketing and legal departments within a company don't aways align with each other. What's the actual warranty statement say on that specific vehicle? Does the warranty wording say it will be covered under warranty if used at race tracks? The words in the warranty statement is what will count in court. Not trying to argue ... just stating marketing can say whatever they want, and manufactures can put all kinds of "track apps" and feathers on cars but still stipulate they won't cover warrranty on cars used for racing, or if "abused" like Ford says in their warranty statements.

I love the mustang and hate Ford that's probably not acceptable around here.....

I think quite a few people feel that way at some point too.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Oh I get you and that's quite reasonable but I'd like to at least start the argument with, but YOU said ( you know how in absence of a tying their hands limiting tsb) it usually comes down to a human in fact they didnt care I was using the can bypass in trunk with a mpvi2...they even sell stage 1 pcms which leaves and extra to get unlocked for tune and swaps.....I got the feeling if it's not an in their face scenario they, these humans, would let most things slide they gave me some examples cause I made no bones about breaking it in then procharger....but your certainly right while I'd have a great moral and circumstantial case with how they market and sell the car....when it comes down to it would be a toss up but I like my chances better than a Ford dealer who wouldn't even pretend its ok and.now can't look at rod knock till it tosses hehe....( not saying tick is rod knock just that every will be lumped now)

 

[Mountain376]

With warranty, you have essentially two kinds of coverage: general and implied

General is your typical coverage, specifically outlined in the warranty guide (i.e. 5 year/60,000 miles - any defects through typical automobile use use)

Implied is special coverage towards the particular design direction of the vehicle (i.e. off-road, track use, construction use, etc.).

Where Ford is able to separate themselves for a lot of liability of track use is disclaiming competition/racing. They got into a little bit of trouble with this in denying warranty on Boss' that had issues on track days (the car was marketed and stated to be designed, very openly, to be a track capable car).

 

[seth21w]

Shit I have a lifetime warranty on my 2016 gtpp for the motor trans and drivetrain. But haven't had a lick of trouble yet. So not sure how reliable it is.

 

[Dfeeds]

Shit I have a lifetime warranty on my 2016 gtpp for the motor trans and drivetrain. But haven't had a lick of trouble yet. So not sure how reliable it is.

Your 2016 doesn't have the PTWA cylinder liners this thread is about. It has iron sleeves.

 

[seth21w]

Your 2016 doesn't have the PTWA cylinder liners this thread is about. It has iron sleeves.

Oh I know I was just bragging about my warranty

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