Sponsored

Mustang vs 2020 Supra

Subarashi

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2019
Threads
0
Messages
22
Reaction score
8
Location
TN
Vehicle(s)
Camry, Infiniti Q60, Subaru BRZ
Not really supra related but still something cool to check out, BMW's new engine S58

  • 3.0 liters, but not exactly the same as the B58. The S58 has a slightly larger bore and shorter stroke (84.0/90.0) compared to the B58 (82.0/94.6). Displacement is technically down five cc, and it’s still an undersquare engine. Theoretically the new engine should have room for bigger valves, better breathing, and should be more rev-happy, but we’ll learn more in time.
  • 7,200 RPM redline, up from 7,000 on the B58.
  • Twin-turbo, as opposed to single on the B58. Confusingly, the B58 is a twin-scroll turbo, with two separate sets of exhaust runners independently running into one turbocharger. BMW calls this “TwinPower Turbo.” The S58 also splits the exhaust, but half the cylinders run into one single-scroll turbo and the other half into another. BMW also calls this, and I cannot stress how dumb this is, “TwinPower Turbo.”
  • Compression ratio down to 9.3:1 versus the B58’s 11:1. This sounds bad to people obsessed with naturally-aspirated engines, but makes sense to those familiar with running boost.
  • 473 HP and 442 lb-ft of torque in base trim.
  • 503 HP in Competition trim, also with 442 lb-ft of torque.

https://jalopnik.com/bmws-new-500-hp-s58-inline-six-should-be-very-interesti-1832589427
Sponsored

 

Hack

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Threads
83
Messages
12,283
Reaction score
7,444
Location
Minneapolis
Vehicle(s)
Mustang, Camaro
Not really supra related but still something cool to check out, BMW's new engine S58
That's the engine that should be in the Supra. Even detuned by 50-75 HP. Put that and a manual transmission in the car and I would want one.
 

9secondko

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Threads
4
Messages
1,986
Reaction score
1,030
Location
Irvine, ca
Vehicle(s)
2003 cobra
Not really supra related but still something cool to check out, BMW's new engine S58

  • 3.0 liters, but not exactly the same as the B58. The S58 has a slightly larger bore and shorter stroke (84.0/90.0) compared to the B58 (82.0/94.6). Displacement is technically down five cc, and it’s still an undersquare engine. Theoretically the new engine should have room for bigger valves, better breathing, and should be more rev-happy, but we’ll learn more in time.
  • 7,200 RPM redline, up from 7,000 on the B58.
  • Twin-turbo, as opposed to single on the B58. Confusingly, the B58 is a twin-scroll turbo, with two separate sets of exhaust runners independently running into one turbocharger. BMW calls this “TwinPower Turbo.” The S58 also splits the exhaust, but half the cylinders run into one single-scroll turbo and the other half into another. BMW also calls this, and I cannot stress how dumb this is, “TwinPower Turbo.”
  • Compression ratio down to 9.3:1 versus the B58’s 11:1. This sounds bad to people obsessed with naturally-aspirated engines, but makes sense to those familiar with running boost.
  • 473 HP and 442 lb-ft of torque in base trim.
  • 503 HP in Competition trim, also with 442 lb-ft of torque.

https://jalopnik.com/bmws-new-500-hp-s58-inline-six-should-be-very-interesti-1832589427
OK numbers.

But for an FI engine it’s not that impressive.

Interesting way to handle the twin scroll though. I kind of like their thinking there.

I still think Toyota should have developed the Supra engine though. Even if it were only for that car. It’s a halo car for them.

I love me some German engineering, but they seem designed to strategically require more than their share of Autohaus visits...
 

Subarashi

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2019
Threads
0
Messages
22
Reaction score
8
Location
TN
Vehicle(s)
Camry, Infiniti Q60, Subaru BRZ
I still think Toyota should have developed the Supra engine though. Even if it were only for that car. It’s a halo car for them.
I couldn't agree more.

This is Toyota's legendary car and they let some outsider basically do it for them.

If Ford released a new Ford GT and had Nissan make the V6 engine for them......

I honestly wanted Toyota's engineering behind this Supra, not only will I be very confident that it will be reliable, it also be Toyota's engineering and mindset. We've seen in the past that they're capable of making with the 2JZ and their Lexus RCF/LC500 V8 that they're capable of making great engines.

Sure it makes sense from a business point of view to let BMW do it and it keeps the spirit of the Supra:

3.0L
Inline 6
Turbo
2 Door
RWD

And this is just talking strictly engines, the interior also looks like it's pretty much a BMW, why couldn't it be Lexus?
I just honestly wanted to see what Toyota could have done/would have done if it was their pride and their work on the line here.
 

MaskedRacerX

Driver
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Threads
73
Messages
5,678
Reaction score
4,746
Location
Vilano Beach, FL
First Name
DT
Vehicle(s)
'21_JWS4XE / '21_TM3P
OK numbers.

But for an FI engine it’s not that impressive.
Wow, really? I think ~167.6 hp/l (in Comp trim) for an OEM (i.e., warranty, emissions considerations, usable powerband) is pretty fantastic. If Ford had the same, it would make the '20 GT500 ~872 HP :)
 

Sponsored

9secondko

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Threads
4
Messages
1,986
Reaction score
1,030
Location
Irvine, ca
Vehicle(s)
2003 cobra
Wow, really? I think ~167.6 hp/l (in Comp trim) for an OEM (i.e., warranty, emissions considerations, usable powerband) is pretty fantastic. If Ford had the same, it would make the '20 GT500 ~872 HP :)
Ford already does GREATER. and for a more Apples to apples comparison, see the GT 3.5 v6. Only .5 liters greater than this engine, but a whopping 150 hp more powerful.

Thats 186 hp/l. Blows away this bmw nonsense.

Not impressed with this one. Sorry.

And the 5.2 v8 WOULD be greater than that number had Ford bothered to develop it with a turbo system instead of supercharged. Turbos make much more power as the parasitic losses are nowhere near.

It boggles the mind that ford hasn’t poured the same card into an ecoboost 8 the way they have the 6. Hopefully they are now that they’ve decided the 8 will live on in mustangs and trucks.

That’s why I said the bmw engine is ok. It makes power. But it is t anything crazy for an FI engine. Should have specified TURBO engine since a turbo car is going to make more horsepower than a supercharged setup.
 

MaskedRacerX

Driver
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Threads
73
Messages
5,678
Reaction score
4,746
Location
Vilano Beach, FL
First Name
DT
Vehicle(s)
'21_JWS4XE / '21_TM3P
Ford already does GREATER. and for a more Apples to apples comparison, see the GT 3.5 v6. Only .5 liters greater than this engine, but a whopping 150 hp more powerful.
Your “apples to apples” comparison is an engine going into a $70K vehicle vs. an engine designed for a $400,000, limited production supercar?

Come on man, that’s like apples-to-anvils ... :D

When I said this:

I think ~167.6 hp/l (in Comp trim) for an OEM (i.e., warranty, emissions considerations, usable powerband) is pretty fantastic.
I guess I should've added [to the list in the (...) ]: cost :) Then compare cars like Ford's own Focus RS, Audi RS3/TT, even special models like the AMG cars, the S63 (603HP/4L). I think it's safe to say the FGT is a near-half-a-million dollar outlier :D
 

9secondko

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2014
Threads
4
Messages
1,986
Reaction score
1,030
Location
Irvine, ca
Vehicle(s)
2003 cobra
Your “apples to apples” comparison is an engine going into a $70K vehicle vs. an engine designed for a $400,000, limited production supercar?

Come on man, that’s like apples-to-anvils ... :D

When I said this:



I guess I should've added [to the list in the (...) ]: cost :) Then compare cars like Ford's own Focus RS, Audi RS3/TT, even special models like the AMG cars, the S63 (603HP/4L). I think it's safe to say the FGT is a near-half-a-million dollar outlier :D
It’s not the engine that makes the car cost that There’s the one-off chassis engineeering, the high tech gadgetry, the extensive carbon fiber, etc.

And the halo status allows for higher pricing.

The engine is a Ford Ecoboost v6.

Could just as easily go into a sedan if ford was still into sedans. It’s about product strategy and nothing more.

It’s a fair Apples to apples comparison.

Ford just happens to win this one is s huge way. They make amazing world class engines these days. Even putting s hurt on automakers formerly thought their better. The game has changed.
 

Eritas

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Threads
0
Messages
935
Reaction score
404
Location
Florida
Vehicle(s)
2016 Mustang GT
The $50K CLA45 AMG makes 375hp from a 2L. = 187.5hp/L.

It's harder to maintain a given HP/L as displacement increases.
 

Sponsored

Hack

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2014
Threads
83
Messages
12,283
Reaction score
7,444
Location
Minneapolis
Vehicle(s)
Mustang, Camaro
I think it's pretty obvious that the engine Toyota is offering in the Supra is low powered - even compared to relatively inexpensive competitors.
 
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Threads
21
Messages
1,078
Reaction score
394
Location
GA
Vehicle(s)
2016 Mustang GT
I made 200+hp/L in my Focus ST and I was being tame with it. HP/L is a dumb argument for why any car is better than any other.
 

bluebeastsrt

Oh boy
Joined
May 10, 2015
Threads
79
Messages
7,552
Reaction score
7,026
Location
New Jersey
First Name
BigD
Vehicle(s)
Ruby red 2019 GT Premium.
I made 200+hp/L in my Focus ST and I was being tame with it. HP/L is a dumb argument for why any car is better than any other.
Wrong! Its a fantastical arguement if own a riced out 90s civic.:wink:
 

cosmic charlie

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Threads
4
Messages
600
Reaction score
464
Location
Sunny Florida and Taxachussettes.
Vehicle(s)
2019 Steeda Streetfighter Q850 NEED FOR GREEN, 2016 Focus RS (frozen white), 2016 Focus RS (stealth grey), 2014 Ford F150 Crewcab, 2015 Porsche Boxter GTS, 2013 Mercedez Benz ML350, 2003 Mercedes Benz C32AMG, 1989 Honda CRX Si Turbo
 




Top