GT350 will live past 2019 with GT500 engine block!

[Mountain376]

What do you think that adds to the discussion?

Uh... because it's relevant to this discussion. I would say more-so relevant than the discussions on HP/TQ between GT/GT Bullitt vs. GT350 and also cHP/fwHP vs. rwHP...

The topic of THIS thread is "GT350 will live past 2019 with GT500 engine block!"
The major discussion is about the GT500 block being utilized in the GT350 and, with that, some are questioning if this means a switch to CPC from FPC.

This topic of the GT350R-C, FP350S and Mustang GT4 comes into question and relavent discussion is because 1. with the GT500 5.2L engine being a supercharged development deviation from the GT350 5.2L engine, but CPC instead of FPC and 2. with the current Mustang race cars have deviated away from the FPC direction FP was on and instead to a traditional CPC (also all with 5.2L engine blocks the same/deviation of the 5.2L Voodoo).

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[Mountain376]

I want to add, please do not confuse my comment as one saying "the FPC Voodoo is garbage". Actually the opposite - Ford did quite the stand-out, stellar job developing the Voodoo. However, it has it's limitations, to which should not be ignored.

 

[firestarter2]

Uh... because it's relevant to this discussion. I would say more-so relevant than the discussions on HP/TQ between GT/GT Bullitt vs. GT350 and also cHP/fwHP vs. rwHP...

The topic of THIS thread is "GT350 will live past 2019 with GT500 engine block!"
The major discussion is about the GT500 block being utilized in the GT350 and, with that, some are questioning if this means a switch to CPC from FPC.

This topic of the GT350R-C, FP350S and Mustang GT4 comes into question and relavent discussion is because 1. with the GT500 5.2L engine being a supercharged development deviation from the GT350 5.2L engine, but CPC instead of FPC and 2. with the current Mustang race cars have deviated away from the FPC direction FP was on and instead to a traditional CPC (also all with 5.2L engine blocks the same/deviation of the 5.2L Voodoo).

It was posted the with the power limitations of racing it did not make sense to use the voodoo in racing when a cheaper and simpler engine would suffice.. KISS. The post I am referring to basically said that.

And as EVERYONE has said the block used had no bearing on the crank used since they are interchangeable. Now if someone said you could not put a FPC crank in the GT500 block there might be a discussion to be had.

 

[spectremotorsports]

I'm genuinely hoping they continue the GT350 and add the digital gauges and an option for the DCT out of the 500. That's basically my unicorn, and I'd gladly abandon my search(and damage to my bank account) for a decent pre-owned 911.2 GT3 for something like that.

 

[Lurker_350]

......

“But the advantage was never exploited because a mere ten laps into his run Johnson reported that the exhaust had broken and a visit to the box confirmed that the header flange studs had failed. The flat-plane crank 5.2-litre motor generates more vibration than a conventional configuration and this adds stress to the exhaust, especially in racing conditions, but as a testament to the design of the car and the diligence of Ford Performance, this was the first failure of any GT350R-C component in competition usage.”
http://multimaticmotorsports.com/road-america-kind-multimatic-motorsports/

.....

I spoke to the Kohr guys at Circuit of the Americas regarding the FPC/CPC switch during a pre-race grid walk. Their comment was:

• Don't remove vibration dampers. Problems with exhaust failure appeared when using aftermarket headers. They stated, somewhat emphatically, that they expect the car to be very reliable when used for track days and street driving as long as vibration dampers are not messed with.
• There was no need to have the high redline of the FPC since the BOP restrictions limited their power anyway. It was better to use the CPC configuration for their purpose and the limitations imposed on them.

The statement on exhaust failures is somewhat backed by a recent motor swap due to a A/C mounting bolt issue for a member here. He had cracking on the exhaust, but had lost a vibration damper on that side. I can't recall his username and didn't look for it, but he has a thread about the swap.

 

[Mountain376]

It was posted the with the power limitations of racing it did not make sense to use the voodoo in racing when a cheaper and simpler engine would suffice.. KISS. The post I am referring to basically said that.

And as EVERYONE has said the block used had no bearing on the crank used since they are interchangeable. Now if someone said you could not put a FPC crank in the GT500 block there might be a discussion to be had.

Additional ref material:
https://roushyates.com/engines/ford-mustang/
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2017/2017-ford-mustang-fp350s-race-car-review/ (FP350S runs a very similar engine to the GT4; note the description and power ratings)
https://sportscar365.com/imsa/impc/inside-the-ford-shelby-mustang-gt350r-c/("While producing 526 horsepower on the street, the GT350R-C’s engine had to be detuned to make it legal for competition in the Continental Tire Challenge GS class.")

Yeah, I covered that point. Let me elaborate more....

You think this:
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-A52XS
Re-tuned with a GT350 intake and TB makes significantly less power than a 5.2L FPC Voodoo???

That FP is pretty close to what is in the GT4.

The power/BoP stance is not 100%. It's the high-strung nature of the Voodoo+race setup. Sorry. Story end.

 

[Mountain376]

I mean... why not just run a Gen 2/3 Coyote if being efficient against BoP restrictors is the case (design of engine vs. airflow)? If you're cutting a 530HP engine into the 450HP+.... Running 7,500 vs 8,250 is more fuel efficient.

 

[svttim]

Dean is a Friend and confirmed in private what the story says. Not saying there are not issues with the FPC or the motor but, that's not the reason they are not using the car

 

[olaosunt]

I believe this IS the current Voodoo block.

I strongly suspect that the only difference between the old and new block are the longer head bolts; the same head bolts that are used on the 18+ Coyote blocks as well. Its just supply chain simplicity.

A) what does the crank have to due with burning oil
B) where does it say that ford is swapping cranks?
C) the block is the same block, its thicker, with deeper head bolts to assist in boost.
D) My neighbors GT350 was bought very early, and he still has it, no issues. Not every car is great, and not every car is a turd. Porsche has plenty of its own issues.

So back on topic. I too had thought the "new "block was the same as used in current GT 350 but it does look likes its an updated version hence the designation "A"
M-6010-M52 vs M-6010-M52A


Old non "A" version has been discontinued but the description of both blocks is identical (both have the 12 mm head bolts)

However the head bolt kit is different and wont fit the old block.

https://www.levittownfordparts.com/ford-performance-head-changing-p-7835.html

 

[olaosunt]

Old block
https://www.levittownfordparts.com/...-cylinder-block-production-coyote-p-4670.html

New block
https://www.levittownfordparts.com/ford-performance-coyote-aluminum-engine-block-p-7745.html

 

[JAJ]

Ford has been casting a production 5.2 liter Modular block since 2015. It's only used on the Romeo Niche Line, so it's unlikely that they'd spend the money to cast two different variants when one would do. So, as the GT500 developed, they reinforced the block design and the current casting is fine for either the Voodoo or the GT500 engine.

As for the crank, the GT350 has FPC and the GT500 has CPC. Which is which is determined by the branding. Ford has made both work in the hostile world of performance oriented drivers - broken rods and cranks are rare in the FPC Voodoo, although there are other failure modes that happen more often than we'd like.

 

[Zitrosounds]

Old block
https://www.levittownfordparts.com/...-cylinder-block-production-coyote-p-4670.html

New block
https://www.levittownfordparts.com/ford-performance-coyote-aluminum-engine-block-p-7745.html

It's still the same block with some revision for oiling and cooling. New revisions get new part #'s

 

[olaosunt]

It's still the same block with some revision for oiling and cooling. New revisions get new part #'s

Good to know . I may be building a CPC block starting with this to replace a sleeved 5.2 I suspect is now trashed after the crank broke .

 

[nodonut]

LOL @ all these people thinking that the GT500 block means CPC.

These things exist independently and are not mutually exclusive.

Let's break it down barney speed.

This is a block:

This is a FPC:

This is a CPC:

You can put either of those cranks in the same block.

This is pretty basic stuff.

I believe it is really simple, as you say. Has anyone thought it might be possible the GT500 is simply going to be using the same 5.2 block as the GT350 AND the only difference will be the use of the CPC in the GT500, versus using the FPC in the GT350. The CPC is being used because of the SC and the FPC is staying with the GT350 because it will remain NA. I don't believe it has anything to do with reliability as some are saying.

 

[Hack]

I believe it is really simple, as you say. Has anyone thought it might be possible the GT500 is simply going to be using the same 5.2 block as the GT350 AND the only difference will be the use of the CPC in the GT500, versus using the FPC in the GT350. The CPC is being used because of the SC and the CPC is staying with the GT350 because it will remain NA. I don't believe it has anything to do with reliability as some are saying.

No, the CPC requires different cams, so the cams will be different. I would also bet that the valvetrain will have other differences since the engine redline will be lower. And the pistons will be different - I expect somewhat lower compression in the GT500 compared to the GT350. Possibly the rods might be different as well.

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