We are fortunate to have a manual!

[cbrookre]

As a millennial I am going to offer a slightly different perspective here. I have owned 11 cars since I turned 16 (currently 33) and 9 of the 11 were manual. I tried a DSG in my first GTI because it was faster and got bored. It was gone in a year. Now I have an Edge Sport because I am a new father and my wife has a Focus RS so we needed something a bit bigger for our son and German Shepherd. Speaking of my wife I taught her how to drive stick when we were dating. Since I taught her she has bought four new cars. 3 of 4 were manual and the auto she had only lasted 10 months before we traded it in. I also taught my best friend on my 13 5.0. He now owns a Boss 302.

My father owned a manual transmission car from the day I was born to now. I grew up watching him shift his Saleen and later his SHO which would become mine. My and my sister's first new cars were both manual. My 25 year old sister still dailys a manual. My wife on the other hand, her dad never owned a manual. She drove a Buick when I met her. I had to coax her to try my Civic Si at the time. But when she finally mastered it she fell in love.

My point is my dad exposed me to manual transmissions. He taught me. He drove cars that made me fall in love with manual and shared them with me. There was never a car in my dad's garage that he wouldn't let me drive. My friends growing up? Their parents drove minivans, camry's and grand prixs. Which later turned to Explorers and Highlanders. Those same friends drive automatics now. Audi A8, Lexus ES350, Toyota Highlander. Is that their fault they don't know how to drive manual or care much about driving? Maybe. Or maybe the blame is shared with their parents.

OK, first of all hearing that you have a German Shepherd separates you from the rest of the non-GS millenial crowd. You clearly are a solid, respectable man.

Second, you are obviously an enthusiast that was inspired by, well, someone other than your immediate, same aged, general peer group that cares WAY more about what is the next jazzy 5 inch screened object than what gets them from point A to point B. Clearly there are enthusiasts still within he younger crowd, but predominantly the millenials think of the car somewhat akin to a refrigerator or toaster. Has to have four tires, windows that roll up and down, not bother me with maintenance or anything, look non-offensive and be easily replaceable. And if someone can convince them that the Earth is somehow saved by them driving that vs. the other thing, then all the better.

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[HoosierDaddy]

predominantly the millenials think of the car somewhat akin to a refrigerator or toaster.

I disagree. That group thinks much more positively about cars than toasters and will continue to do so until there is an "Uber" for toast. Unlike toasters, cars are at least decent enough to no longer force their ownership on a person.

 

[cbrookre]

I disagree. That group thinks much more positively about cars than toasters and will continue to do so until there is an "Uber" for toast. Unlike toasters, cars are at least decent enough to no longer force their ownership on a person.

I stand corrected. Thank you sir!

 

[Colleton]

...I tried a DSG in my first GTI because it was faster and got bored. It was gone in a year. Now I have an Edge Sport because I am a new father and my wife has a Focus RS so we needed something a bit bigger for our son and German Shepherd...

Boomer here, but I had the same experience with an '08 GTI. Even had it tuned by APR. It was fast and a great performer, but it made me want a stick in my performance car so I bought a Mustang. I have an Edge Sport as my daily now, and I love that car to death. Don't care that it's an auto. When I put her in Sport mode Helga gets her big ass up and moves. My wife drives a Focus ST and loves it.

 

[Bossing]

Yes indeed we all are fortunate to have a manual in the GT350/GT350R.... I truly enjoy it. I manually row gears in the R, the GT4, and in the Miata. But in fairness I also absolutely enjoy the lightning fast shifts in my PDK-S GT3.... and yes when I prefer, I can manually use the paddle shifters and sometimes even the actual shift lever on the center console to experience the sequential DCT upshifts and downshifts.

And, IMO, no it's not boring nor diminishes my involvement nor lessens my visceral experience. I can choose my gear and my rpm range in that gear.... I can choose to shift early or late or just stay in the gear I want to be in for as long as I want. Basically, I still have control.

I'm a big manual transmission enthusiast but I have zero qualms against DCT transmissions (PDK in Porsche parlance). They are without doubt very fun to use and also quite engaging yet in a different perspective.

I like it even more when manufacturers offer BOTH choices.... hopefully they'll eventually do that for the new GT500. Pick your poison.... everybody wins.

 

[UAmach1]

I remember Randy P testing Porsches at Big Willow and the manual and PDK were within tenths of a second.

I'm not saying I personally can drive a manual as fast as I could drive a car with an automatic, but it is possible.



Agreed 100%. And I would say that the best part of a manual transmission is messing around with it in traffic. l love going to the track, but I can only afford to do that a handful of days per year. But I have to drive to work 5 days a week. I couldn't even stand the boredom of driving an automatic every day in traffic. Just shoot me now! If a manual isn't available I might as well have a self-driving car and just read a book or something instead.

Randy did the ZL1 and found the auto to be faster than the manual, but if I remember he had to spend time dialing in the auto's tire pressure to be just right for it.

 

[Hack]

Randy did the ZL1 and found the auto to be faster than the manual, but if I remember he had to spend time dialing in the auto's tire pressure to be just right for it.

Yes you are right. You can definitely buy a car with an automatic and say that you bought it because you wanted a faster car.

Yes, it is mostly possible, save for the shift lag time which is a few tenths per lap. That can depend on the track as some only require a few shifts per lap.

Guys like Randy P are ALMOST as automatic as DCT. Where the difference comes is repeatability. Pros like Randy P are probably >99.5% perfect on their shifts but that few tenths and 1 mistake per 20 laps will easily cost position in racing. For track day guys, it's probably seconds per lap between speed of the shift, mistakes and mental energy being spent on shifting as opposed to all the things that make you fast.

So are you admitting you were wrong when you said that manual transmissions have zero place in a discussion of performance vehicles?

 

[sdiver68]

So are you admitting you were wrong when you said that manual transmissions have zero place in a discussion of performance vehicles?

Huh? No Im saying that RP would never take a manual in a modern race if he had a choice. But if he had 1 it wouldnt be nearly the time handicap it is for you.

 

[cbrookre]

Huh? No Im saying that RP would never take a manual in a modern race if he had a choice. But if he had 1 it wouldnt be nearly the time handicap it is for you.

All due respect, but those two statements are not remotely the same. Saying it has "no place" is totally discounting the relevance of it's existence. Your last statement is saying that the Auto, in the hands of a skilled professional, is the preferable option for hitting the 99% percentile of measurable performance. Most people that discuss "performance vehicles" are not the types that would see any discernible difference in lap time, nor even would they be timing laps in the first place. Please be consistent.

 

[sdiver68]

All due respect, but those two statements are not remotely the same. Saying it has "no place" is totally discounting the relevance of it's existence. Your last statement is saying that the Auto, in the hands of a skilled professional, is the preferable option for hitting the 99% percentile of measurable performance. Most people that discuss "performance vehicles" are not the types that would see any discernible difference in lap time, nor even would they be timing laps in the first place. Please be consistent.

None taken. All due respect, Randy Probst has been racing for at least 25 years. Today, with DCT's, no place for manuals in modern performance cars, including the GT500. What you are missing is the perspective of experience..confusing historical statements and recognition of his skill (when manuals had a prominent place in performance cars now known as Vintage) with the present.

But don't take it from me, from Randy himself..make note of the words obsolete and retro...sound familiar?

"Manual shifting is an art form and, unfortunately, one that is quickly becoming obsolete due to the advances of modern technology. I wrote about this a while back, in The Trans, They Are A-Changin’. The work I have been doing with Motor Trend has kept me on the front lines of the latest from the auto manufacturers, including the new Shelby GT350 and R-model Mustangs. They both still use traditional clutch-and-stick gear changes, but hey, they’re Shelbys, retro rods, and so it is quite appropriate."

https://www.scca.com/articles/1999584-sportscar-feature-randy-pobst-on-shifting-gears

 

[5.2 liters of democracy]

Manuals and Harleys...modern anachronisms that live on! Manuals have zero place in any modern day performance discussion.

Genuine question here, not a "haha gotcha."

If your sidebar is correct and you own a convertible, don't you think it's strange to argue about the manual application in a performance car? A convertible is slower too.

 

[cbrookre]

Genuine question here, not a "haha gotcha."

If your sidebar is correct and you own a convertible, don't you think it's strange to argue about the manual application in a performance car? A convertible is slower too.

Well, this conversation is orthogonal to what I personally drive, don't you think? I think it is clear that by driving a GT variant, I care about performance to a certain extent (it is certain not NOT a performance car) but am not personally interested in competing to the highest level, only cruising on the highway with the occasional run down an on ramp or hard acceleration out of a tight country road corner. It is absolutely true that the convertible is not as quick due to the extra weight and chassis flex. Unless I am missing something, this has no bearing on the arguments at hand with respect to the GT500. Am I not allowed to have an opinion because I am not in the market for this car? Does that make my perspective somehow invalid?

As to Probst, he is speaking from his perspective which is to wring out the last percent of performance from the vehicles that he drives on a track and he is right from that perspective. You, it seems, have the same perspective. Quite simply, I feel he is wrong for the use that most of these GT500s will see which is daily driving on a street, not a track. There is no way without driving extremely recklessly and dangerously that you could get to the performance levels that will demonstrate any measurable difference whatsoever between a clutch manual and a DCT on a street. In that environment, the manual is still perfectly relevant from the "experience of the driver" perspective. Heck, even for the casual racer who wants to hit the occasional track day just to get the experience, it is also still relevant. This is an opinion based argument, so there is no real winning unless you start discounting someone else's perspective. It all depends on your personal metrics. So, for the sake of this discussion in this forum, Randy's opinion is just that, one of many opinions based on his personal viewpoint.

 

[CAL Captain]

None taken. All due respect, Randy Probst has been racing for at least 25 years. Today, with DCT's, no place for manuals in modern performance cars, including the GT500...

Holy crap! We're just trying to have fun, not run the Indy 500!

 

[5.2 liters of democracy]

Well, this conversation is orthogonal to what I personally drive, don't you think? I think it is clear that by driving a GT variant, I care about performance to a certain extent (it is certain not NOT a performance car) but am not personally interested in competing to the highest level, only cruising on the highway with the occasional run down an on ramp or hard acceleration out of a tight country road corner. It is absolutely true that the convertible is not as quick due to the extra weight and chassis flex. Unless I am missing something, this has no bearing on the arguments at hand with respect to the GT500. Am I not allowed to have an opinion because I am not in the market for this car? Does that make my perspective somehow invalid?

As to Probst, he is speaking from his perspective which is to wring out the last percent of performance from the vehicles that he drives on a track and he is right from that perspective. You, it seems, have the same perspective. Quite simply, I feel he is wrong for the use that most of these GT500s will see which is daily driving on a street, not a track. There is no way without driving extremely recklessly and dangerously that you could get to the performance levels that will demonstrate any measurable difference whatsoever between a clutch manual and a DCT on a street. In that environment, the manual is still perfectly relevant from the "experience of the driver" perspective. Heck, even for the casual racer who wants to hit the occasional track day just to get the experience, it is also still relevant. This is an opinion based argument, so there is no real winning unless you start discounting someone else's perspective. It all depends on your personal metrics. So, for the sake of this discussion in this forum, Randy's opinion is just that, one of many opinions based on his personal viewpoint.

It sounds like you think I was talking about what you're driving, but I'm actually talking about what sdiver68 drives. It says he has a vert. This is my first time even posting in this thread. My point being that if he's driving something that isn't optimized to cut the lowest time, why care if others do the same thing in a different way (E.g. driving manual)?

 

[cbrookre]

It sounds like you think I was talking about what you're driving, but I'm actually talking about what sdiver68 drives. It says he has a vert. This is my first time even posting in this thread. My point being that if he's driving something that isn't optimized to cut the lowest time, why care if others do the same thing in a different way (E.g. driving manual)?

Oh man, my bad there. Totally did not put the names together. Thanks for the clarification. Your point is now valid.

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