predator 5.2L vs aluminator 5.2L

[S550Boss]

Well... there is a lot going on in the next several months. The C8 vette is apparently delayed, and the C7 will look like a Model T next to a Model A when the C8 is out. Future of ye olde Chevy small block? Not in the long term. The Camaro will have the new DOHC engine eventually. And just like there will be an all-new Mustang at last (with the first truly new platform in the CD6 since the FOX), there will be a new Camaro at some point on an updated Alpha chassis (and think about it, if the one thing fixed is the stupidly low roofline... it'd be far more competitive). The Supra is nearby... but will be 100 HP lower than the Mustang or Camaro, underpowered and more expensive. Challenger? Who cares, at 4300 pounds and up this is never competitive in terms of overall dynamics and their product plan for a replacement has repeatedly been changed, unfunded, changed again, dropped and DOA.

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[Hattrick]

Better check the year end sales numbers, your who cares Mopar blew away the Camaro for 2018.

 

[JR369]

ok so according to the LEAK we're getting 720 hp. with all the talk and speculation and broken hearts and disappointment. and as a certified ford tech of 25 yrs, seeing ford history of mass production garbage that we work on everyday. I can see 720 hp being reality. look at all the cobra's, Gt500's cobras had the kellog crank manley pistons but crappy pistons. the Gt500's esp the 13'14's all this exotic hardware and 40.00 a piece rods. then the block was done at about 850 hp due to the PWT flaking off. seems the boss or 15/17 5.0L are the best bang for the buck. honestly the GT350/R are a joke at 70-85k. but lets talk about the predator vs the aluminator, I truly believe that 720 hp is about all your going to see with the PWT block. we have to meet emissions, we have to go 5/60 powertrain warranty. the 15/16 5.0L blocks still use sleeves(though they move around at over 850 hp, then the PWT will want to flake off at over 850 hp also.so you can put all the kryptonite in the block but sooner or later the block will reach its limit. abd I think the 720Hp might be it to still have the war and emissions cert. I don't know how long a boosted 5.2L will last in a Cobra Jet pushing 1000 hp though. I guess the blocks are still PWT or they go full BoZo on the block and get the darton sleeves. guess we will see

The MSRP on the GT350 and the R is priced appropriately. Dealership ADM is the joke. Part 2 of that joke will be the GT500 ADMs... The R is a NA "track monster" but I doubt you know this first hand.

 

[S550Boss]

The HP and torque specs that may or may not be announced next week may not be the final specs... if Ford history is a lesson it will depend on when the car actually starts production. If it's several months off, that means there is more time to calibrate and tune.. so the numbers might be a bit higher. This has happened several times in the past with SVT and FP.
Also, if production is some months off, there may not be pricing announced next week - and it is the even bigger question.
The current GT350 is very close to the Camaro ZL1 in pricing... a few thou more that you might as well pony up will get you a ZL1 with far more power and handling dynamics than a GT350. The ZL1 is a bargain and the 1LE version is the icing on the cake, it's extremely well done (except of course in sightlines, so it's a car that is very tough to live with on a daily basis). So the GT500 obviously can't be priced the same as the ZL1, and it's beginning to look like it has a lot more of everything over the GT350. What if it costs 10 grand more than a ZL1, and only offers comparable performance (since the ZL1 weighs less, so less HP is needed, and it has a more advanced chassis, especially in 1LE guise).
I think that Ford priced the GT350 too high, so it's not cost competitive against price-comparable Camaro models. And that they should have kept development costs (and therefore price) down by spreading the costs of the unique (and therefore expensive) pieces back into the rest of the Mustang lineup (unique front spindle and unique rear arms should be on every model, the transmission should be on all GTs, there should only be 1 Recaro model offered instead of 2, and the bits such as the unique brakes and coolers should have been shared with the PP2 - which is a really useless model and uncompetitive without those bits).
The GT500 will be very expensive, likely uncompetitively so, because yet again it's loaded with unique parts, parts that are not even spread out in the GT350's cost.
Remember the important equation the ratio of HP and torque to weight. The HP number alone means little: an 800 HP car that weighs 4500 pounds is not a better car than a 750 HP car that weighs 3700, except for poseur talk.

 

[Epiphany]

And that they should have kept development costs (and therefore price) down by spreading the costs.... the transmission should be on all GTs, there should only be 1 Recaro model offered instead of 2, and the bits such as the unique brakes and coolers should have been shared with the PP2 - which is a really useless model and uncompetitive without those bits).
The GT500 will be very expensive, likely uncompetitively so, because yet again it's loaded with unique parts, parts that are not even spread out in the GT350's cost.

We think very much alike.

Regarding sharing the knuckle...using the GT350 knuckle on the 4 cyl model (for example) wouldn't make sense for a myriad of reasons. But I agree that it should have been used on the PP2 GT (along with coolers). At least the cost of the knuckle is further spread out with its use on both the current GT350 as well as the upcoming GT500. Unless of course it needed to be revised for the new application and requires a new part/number.

 

[Hack]

The current GT350 is very close to the Camaro ZL1 in pricing... a few thou more that you might as well pony up will get you a ZL1 with far more power and handling dynamics than a GT350. The ZL1 is a bargain and the 1LE version is the icing on the cake, it's extremely well done (except of course in sightlines, so it's a car that is very tough to live with on a daily basis). SNIP
I think that Ford priced the GT350 too high, so it's not cost competitive against price-comparable Camaro models. SNIP

And yet the reviewers have said they prefer the GT350R over the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE.

And the Camaros are all selling (albeit slowly) at MSRP or lower. After years of sales, you still will have some difficulty buying a GT350R at MSRP.

So - while the numbers on paper seem to say one thing, they don't tell the whole story.

Your opinion might be that the Camaro is a better value, but you still own a Ford. I'm not surprised that you have a Ford. But I am surprised you think the Camaro is better. You should go trade tomorrow. It will be very easy to find a Camaro.

 

[Epiphany]

It's a great time to be alive if you are a Camaro fan. It really is a fantastic car and better than Ford's pony car in a number of performance metrics. The fact that it can be had rape-free is icing on the cake. Problem is, if your a dyed in the wool Ford fan you most likely just can't bring yourself to grow a mullet.

 

[stanglife]

I think that Ford priced the GT350 too high, so it's not cost competitive against price-comparable Camaro models.

Define "competitive". You've put it in the context of price so I'll just say...GT350s are STILL selling like mad and in some cases, over sticker. ZL1s are...sitting...discounted, just like we all predicted.

 

[btown93]

It’s a little bit of revisionist history talking about the GT350 being priced “too high”. In 2016 before the PP2 and ZL1, nobody had a problem with it which is why ADM was the way it was, for as long as it was. Remember that these cars base price was originally 50k. If you want to talk about in 2018/2019 GT350s being priced at $60k+ and therefore not a good value, I think that’s a different conversation.

 

[SVTSNAKE355]

Define "competitive". You've put it in the context of price so I'll just say...GT350s are STILL selling like mad and in some cases, over sticker. ZL1s are...sitting...discounted, just like we all predicted.

And thats the truth.zl1s are discounted and sitting everywhere.they are just not good cars to most people.

 

[S550Boss]

We think very much alike.
Regarding sharing the knuckle...using the GT350 knuckle on the 4 cyl model (for example) wouldn't make sense .

I've talked to the engineers of the GT350 about this at the GT350 press launch event... It does make sense and they know it because there was previously only a single knuckle for everything except the GT350 (and GT500, presumably). They had money so they optimized it further for the GT350 model (which has hundfeds of unique parts). But they didn't have the time or mission to send some of the parts back into the base product line. So now Ford has the expense of two sets of knuckles in production, 2 sets of rear control arms, etc. They told me that this increases prices for everybody, and build complexity (which remember Ford has a mission to significantly reduce that).
Now granted, there would be some engineering required. For example, for the rear control arms, with their separate right-and left-wound springs (separate right and left according to the engineers), the entire model line would have to be re-engineering for that. Instead, you'd probably want to do that at the beginning of the model (as in 2015) rather than mid-life. Having these right-and left-wound springs does have handling advantages, in fact it's a feature of the new Fiesta ST.
As to PP2, it's a half-ass product and a waste of time without the cooling that is requirfed for the track. And it isn't even competitive with the Camaro, which has both the cooling and the 4-wheel Brembos. The engineers have been at a loss to say what the point of PP2 was, except that they made it clear it isn't a track vehicle. And testing since then has shown that.. very embarrassingly.
The GT500 is another issue, we don't know the parts situation yet there. One thing that is evident is that some money was spent on the rear brakes - you'll notice that the parking brake is separate on the GT500, where on the GT350 it is incorporated into the hub inside the rotor. This was a late change in the GT500 product line and it means a unique spindle in the rear.
So there is a hodgepodge of "stuff" on this orphan platform, which comes to an end in 2 years. CD6 is the cost-sharing future (the same as the Camaro/ATS/CTS "Alpha" platform) and it is *very* interesting to look at that. NCte the short/long arm front suspension for example... a great feature for the future Mustang... unless it gets dumbed down to a simpleton strut before production just as the DEW98 de-evolution to S197 was (and I saw the mule for this in Dearborn). But with platform commonality being the goal, perhaps it won't be made stupid. The CD6 program and the reassignment of Flat Rock to the electric mission also suggests the assembly of the Mustang will be moving to the Aviator/Explorer line... saving more production costs. All very good stuff for the next and better iteration. You might even hope for some weight loss!

 

[S550Boss]

It’s a little bit of revisionist history talking about the GT350 being priced “too high”. In 2016 before the PP2 and ZL1, nobody had a problem with it which is why ADM was the way it was, for as long as it was. Remember that these cars base price was originally 50k. If you want to talk about in 2018/2019 GT350s being priced at $60k+ and therefore not a good value, I think that’s a different conversation.

Ok... well..

PP2 is a waste of time, doesn't compete with anything. Even the SS has coolers + Brembos all around.

GT350 doesn't compete in performance with ZL1 (and certainly not with ZL1 + 1LE). GT350 is however priced lower.
GT500 is an unknown... it certainly competes in performance with ZL1, probably more, but doesn't have suspension features to compete with ZL1+1LE. Pricing is an unknown.
And the ZL1 has a unique track app it shares with ATS-V, CTS-V, and Corvette that is ***far*** superior.

 

[btown93]

Ok... well..

PP2 is a waste of time, doesn't compete with anything. Even the SS has coolers + Brembos all around.

GT350 doesn't compete in performance with ZL1 (and certainly not with ZL1 + 1LE). GT350 is however priced lower.
GT500 is an unknown... it certainly competes in performance with ZL1, probably more, but doesn't have suspension features to compete with ZL1+1LE. Pricing is an unknown.
And the ZL1 has a unique track app it shares with ATS-V, CTS-V, and Corvette that is ***far*** superior.

You stated the GT350 was priced too high, but at introduction it was widely considered a performance bargain as it had capabilities of a much higher priced car. I’m not sure on what you are saying, should the 16 GT350s have been priced lower than $50k? I can understand the argument given the current offerings of vehicles that have come out in the years since 2016. I would agree that in 2019, a $65k GT350 is a harder sell and priced too high. If you are talking performance per dollar, maybe the other cars you mentioned make more sense, but some didn’t exist in 2015/2016

 

[S550Boss]

This is written after the fact... but shortly after it's introduction the ZL1 came out that cost just a little bit more, but out-performed it by far... especially when the 1LE package was added. And then there is there is the Performance Data Recorder... very powerful and conveniently built in.
Of course the sightlines in the Camaro and ridiculous ergonomics make it a PITA for daily use, almost impossible. And on track you can't see out of it (I've had students almost crash it due to this). If they'd only put a normal roofline on it, instead of a comic book car design, this discussion would be different.
Fortunately there is choice in the market, 2 great cars, each different, neither matching up exactly in price or performance. The fact that there is competition is better all around the for market. I've enjoyed driving them both on track but remain a Mustang owner because it's real world better (just as Clarkson said).

 

[Epiphany]

I've talked to the engineers of the GT350 about this at the GT350 press launch event... It does make sense and they know it because there was previously only a single knuckle for everything except the GT350 (and GT500, presumably). They had money so they optimized it further for the GT350 model (which has hundfeds of unique parts). But they didn't have the time or mission to send some of the parts back into the base product line. So now Ford has the expense of two...

It wouldn't make sense.

The GT350 knuckle would never be used across the board as it it has a much different mission. It got the green light even though it added expense for a few reasons. Ford needed a lightweight knuckle that could serve to allow further improvement over and above the mainstream piece.

The A356 aluminum knuckle has slightly revised geometry and was designed to allow a much beefier hub. There was no hub available that met the needs of the program. So they started with an Explorer hub and changed it into what became a GT350 only hub.

The brake engineers were tasked with designing the best braking system ever for a Mustang - bar none. This required the aforementioned hub and spindle to allow a stiff overall assembly that minimized the potential for deflection. The caliper that got the nod was massive in comparison to any before it in the Ford line. In order to maximize it's performance it was decided to use a radial mount design as opposed to the side mount used on lesser models. You would never use a smaller, lower performing caliper with a radial mount on a car like the Mustang hence why a side mount steel spindle was used for the majority of the car's production mix. You can still use a fairly large caliper that performs well (witness the GT and PP2 caliper) but again, the goals in terms of SVT for braking performance were much higher than what the steel mount would offer in terms of potential.

So why not simply dumb down and build around the GT350 knuckle for GT, Ecoboost, etc, Mustang models? Because Ford likes to do it the hard way. When you do the math, a low cost steel spindle works for the majority of production Mustangs. The A356 knuckle brings with it features that were simply unnecessary for non-GT350's and its requisite, unique hardware (hub, caliper, etc).

Note the GM uses an iron spindle on their best performing Camaro. They amortized the cost better here. Ford engineers acknowledge that. But in order to provide a stiff, solid braking, steering, and handling foundation, the GT350 engineers got the ok to run with optimized and truly unique hardware. Kudos to the people in the program that were successful in arguing on its behalf. They got what they wanted and the car got what they felt it needed.

I know this from those that engineered it and not from engineers after the fact that may not have headed up the program. Some are no longer with Ford or have been tasked with other projects since. The only thing different about the GT350 brake system for 2019 versus 2015-2018 is the fact that the cross drilling is no longer done to the rotors. Other than that the system remains the same. Not a major undertaking and something that was argued about since inception (that it was more looks than for any performance benefit, hence why it was eliminated).

I'm not speaking to any of the other components you mentioned but their use follows the same pattern. And note that Ford engineers further optimized the aluminum knuckle that was used on the GT350 such that it is now a "high trail" knuckle. So you now have the much more common iron spindle, the GT350 knuckle, and now the high trail knuckle that was designed for the GT500. The latest knuckle was designed some time ago and note that Ford still didn't compromise its architecture or make an attempt to mainstream it across the product line. Quite simply, the needs of the GT350 and GT500 in terms of braking, steering, and handling - collectively side in using some unique (and as such, more expensive) hardware. Hence the two aluminum knuckle designs.

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