2019 GT500 Mustang New Spy Video, Pics, Info

[Epiphany]

I think I get what you are saying, even without any specifics. I think I am refuting your statements, and you are missing my points, however.

I mentioned carbon fiber rims as specific hardware that Ford put in their top pony car but Camaro didn't and I believe it's a reason why the GT350R was often reviewed as being superior to the Camaro offerings. I realize that neither your scooter or GT350 had that specific equipment though.

Even the aluminum/steel brake rotors and the especially the FPC Voodoo engine - which you did have in your car - are specific hardware items that I believe are superior to what is offered in the Camaro. IMO the Voodoo by itself makes the Ford a superior product when compared to the engines GM is putting in their Camaros.

I choose to value a one of a kind FPC V8 engine over a data recorder, spool valve shocks or tow hooks. You seem to have different priorities, but with you choosing to deliberately misinterpret my comments and only talk about paint and chrome it's hard to be certain.

You now talk about fiber wheels but that wasn't part of any previous retort from you other than your immediate prior post that I am now quoting. Yes they are nice. Yet the bulk of those that consider a car for serious track duty don't usually include them on their want list. In a nutshell, for pretty much the same reason that most every sanctioning body doesn't allow them.

The SHW GT350 rotors are indeed nice as well. Again however, they wouldn't be the first choice for those that push a car to its limits on the track. Why? The hats aren't separate. Speaks volumes. They are nice for a street car that might see track use but not the typical choice. The rotors/hats on the ZL1-1LE are. Take a close look at them. For that matter, you have to pull the GT350 calipers to make a pad change due to the bridge they use. Great for stiffness (and stud sales!) but not so great for quick and easy trackside manners.

You mention the Voodoo engine....nice for the GT350 but we're past that are are in the realm of a FI 5.2. How that will compare to the engine in the ZL1 variants is a whole nother discussion.

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[PP0001]

@Hack

Have you driven a Boss 302? As much as I love my 350, the Boss was the more fun and "racy" car on the street. I would give the edge in character/emotion to the Boss vs GT350. What seperates the 350 from the boss, in my opinion, is the looks, and the hardware. So much so, it is in fact MUCH harder to experience the performance window of the 350 on public roads. There wasn't anything about the Boss that was cutting edge, or innovative (in comparison to GT350 (unless you want to count the trackey))...in fact, its weaknesses were mostly hardware related (brakes, trans, clutch). The GT350 fixed those weaknesses, while also adding a bit of a curveball with the FPC. Some people want hardware, some people want emotion, and some people want any number of attributes. It's what makes every vehicle unique. Therefore, what is "perfect" or "better" will vary wildly...and varying degrees of importance of emotion/innovation/looks/sound/comfort is inevitbile.

With respect to the Boss 302 versus the GT350/R I can totally relate to pretty much of all your comments.

Aside from the very sticky Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires on the Laguna Seca model which I much prefer to the Cup 2 tires on the R model I found that the quad exhaust was a very cool item on the Boss cars especially when the side baffle plates are removed and shifting takes place between 5000 and 7500 RPM. Of course shifting a GT350/R in Sport Mode at 6000 RPM and up is a totally different aural sound/experience and nothing like I have ever experienced before and possibly the coolest sounding Mustang of all time.

The Boss cars are much less refined of course compared to the Shelby's with the Boss 302 Coyote engine having more noticeable low end torque than the GT350/R's and of course the Shelby from 5000 up to 8250 RPM pulls stronger than the Boss 302. With all of the suspension improvements to the GT350/R including the independent rear end the handling improvement over the Boss is significantly noticeable.

Just like having two totally different children in the same family and absolutely love them equally despite some significant differences.

 

[SpursFan]

My guess as well.
Those hung up on getting the R version, be ready to fork out ADM, for the most part.

Or get in with your dealer long ago. In addition to the two deals I'm locked into I've heard of other dealers offering low to no ADM, something I never encountered in my 350 searches.

 

[machsmith]

Or get in with your dealer long ago. In addition to the two deals I'm locked into I've heard of other dealers offering low to no ADM, something I never encountered in my 350 searches.

that's why I used the term, 'for the most part.'
there will be exceptions. I'll give up my allocation if I'm not interested in the final product.

 

[SpursFan]

The whole term "ADM" bothers me, I almost want to buy a dealership just to work with Ford to fix that garbage. I really look forward to seeing how the next 6 or so months go.

 

[sumfoo1]

The interesting thing to me is that ford is licensing the magnaride setup from GM IIRC.. And the spool valve suspension was developed by multimatic for ford's racing efforts but then was used in production by GM first...

That, to me, has always made no sense....

I also don't understand why this gt-500 still has a blower... why didn't we get an ecoboost voodoo? It seems like it would be more efficient with higher capable output?

I'm assuming they didn't want to deal with the warranty claims by the guys who tune it to +150 hp and then expect ford to replace failed turbos, engines, drivetrain parts etc after they flash it back to stock?

As far as the ZL1-1le is concerned... i'm guessing they don't have the limp mode issues of the c7-z06?
I mean in my opinion a roots blown car usually doesn't make the *best* track vehicle. Too hard to get rid of all that under hood heat... I suppose that's why the gt-500 hood is nothing but vents over the blower?

But to be honest... the R models are the track models and the rest are pretty peppy grand touring cars.
If that intent wasn't made more clear by the new 12 speaker B&O stereo on the '19 gt350 (that i'm probably going to buy)

 

[SVTSNAKE355]

The interesting thing to me is that ford is licensing the magnaride setup from GM IIRC.. And the spool valve suspension was developed by multimatic for ford's racing efforts but then was used in production by GM first...

That, to me, has always made no sense....

I also don't understand why this gt-500 still has a blower... why didn't we get an ecoboost voodoo? It seems like it would be more efficient with higher capable output?

I'm assuming they didn't want to deal with the warranty claims by the guys who tune it to +150 hp and then expect ford to replace failed turbos, engines, drivetrain parts etc after they flash it back to stock?

As far as the ZL1-1le is concerned... i'm guessing they don't have the limp mode issues of the c7-z06?
I mean in my opinion a roots blown car usually doesn't make the *best* track vehicle. Too hard to get rid of all that under hood heat... I suppose that's why the gt-500 hood is nothing but vents over the blower?

But to be honest... the R models are the track models and the rest are pretty peppy grand touring cars.
If that intent wasn't made more clear by the new 12 speaker B&O stereo on the '19 gt350 (that i'm probably going to buy)

The voodoo motor burns up too much oil.i saw a while back Ford trademarked the name eco beast,I wonder what happened.

 

[sumfoo1]

The voodoo motor burns up too much oil.i saw a while back Ford trademarked the name eco beast,I wonder what happened.

I mean they would have to do the typical boost motor items like thicker pistons, different piston ring setup, and lower compression but that all seems do-able and would probably "fix" the oil consumption issues... i just said voodoo because the 5.2 block is the strongest of the bunch, and the FPC layout would make twin scroll turbos work (as is utilized in many of the other ecoboost applications.)

 

[SVTSNAKE355]

I mean they would have to do the typical boost motor items like thicker pistons, different piston ring setup, and lower compression but that all seems do-able and would probably "fix" the oil consumption issues... i just said voodoo because the 5.2 block is the strongest of the bunch, and the FPC layout would make twin scroll turbos work (as is utilized in many of the other ecoboost applications.)

I'm not saying a twin turbo wouldn't kick ass,it would. The thing is would Ford do it.

 

[sumfoo1]

I'm not saying a twin turbo wouldn't kick ass,it would. The thing is would Ford do it.

yeah... long term i'm going to build it... i'm getting a 350 in feb of this year one way or another... and when the warranty runs out it will be turbo... ohh yes... it will be turbo...



Unless my galaxie is done and is turboed by then... then this will remain my VIR toy/ semi daily

 

[Hack]

You now talk about fiber wheels but that wasn't part of any previous retort from you other than your immediate prior post that I am now quoting. Yes they are nice. Yet the bulk of those that consider a car for serious track duty don't usually include them on their want list. In a nutshell, for pretty much the same reason that most every sanctioning body doesn't allow them.

The SHW GT350 rotors are indeed nice as well. Again however, they wouldn't be the first choice for those that push a car to its limits on the track. Why? The hats aren't separate. Speaks volumes. They are nice for a street car that might see track use but not the typical choice. The rotors/hats on the ZL1-1LE are. Take a close look at them. For that matter, you have to pull the GT350 calipers to make a pad change due to the bridge they use. Great for stiffness (and stud sales!) but not so great for quick and easy trackside manners.

You mention the Voodoo engine....nice for the GT350 but we're past that are are in the realm of a FI 5.2. How that will compare to the engine in the ZL1 variants is a whole nother discussion.

AFAIK the carbon fiber rims are by far superior to other options. I've never ever heard of anyone melting them from brake heat or having a failure on the track. I personally think racing teams would use carbon fiber rims if they were allowed. Sanctioning bodies probably don't want to allow such a huge competitive advantage.

The SHW rotors have separate hats. They have a loose slip fit to the iron rotor. They aren't fastened together in a way that doesn't allow relative movement during heat expansion. I have no idea whether they are better or worse than any other rotor, but again every review I've read of the GT350 and R brakes says that they are terrific. My experience on the track has been that the brakes work awesome.

Agreed that the caliper design is not set up for quick changing use, but my pads have lasted for 30,000 miles including a hand full of track outings. So how much of an inconvenience is that really? I will take the superior rigid construction over an inconvenience that will only come up for me once a year or maybe less. I have the studs - they are terrific. I'm really glad you came up with them.

I think you are saying that the Voodoo is no longer relevant because a future engine will make more power. I'm really looking forward to seeing what Ford puts in the GT500. I hope the power plant is every bit as cool and unique as the Voodoo.

 

[Epiphany]

No.

Fiber wheels aren't used in racing as sanctioning bodies have sought to avoid issues from cost and safety.

SHW rotors aren't the typical racers first choice by any measure. The hats are pinned and as such are a consumable. The ZL1 is using a traditional aluminum hat and rotor.

Serious track duty calipers are also designed for quick and easy access to the pads. A cast-in bridge does allow for a stiffer caliper (that the GM caliper does not have) but is a bit of a hindrance. Is the rather small caliper body strength advantage really something that can be exploited on the street? Hardly.

I made no such inference regarding the 5.2 FPC engine. It won't be used in the GT500 and as such, has no relevance here. The GT500 will use a FI CPC Coyote variant that will need adequate cooling to stave off heat soak. There have been reports that the ZL1-1LE has gone limp when pushed at the track under some relatively high ambient temperatures. If Ford can mitigate this issue I'd be surprised as GM is using something like 11 coolers on their hottest pony car.

 

[Hack]

Serious track duty calipers are also designed for quick and easy access to the pads. A cast-in bridge does allow for a stiffer caliper (that the GM caliper does not have) but is a bit of a hindrance. Is the rather small caliper body strength advantage really something that can be exploited on the street? Hardly.

I disagree with most everything in your post. I feel the need to stop this conversation that is somewhat off-topic to the GT500. We can just agree to disagree about whether the equipment Ford puts in their modern Mustangs is competitive for their intended usage and whether it's good for track usage, makes the cars great to drive, etc, etc. I don't think you will convince me that Ford is less than a leader in that regard.

However, first I'd like to ask you what the difference is in caliper deformation vs. load with versus without the cast in bridge? You say it's small, so does that mean you know the magnitude of the difference? Or are you just guessing that it's small?

 

[SpursFan]

No.

Fiber wheels aren't used in racing as sanctioning bodies have sought to avoid issues from cost and safety.

SHW rotors aren't the typical racers first choice by any measure. The hats are pinned and as such are a consumable. The ZL1 is using a traditional aluminum hat and rotor.

Serious track duty calipers are also designed for quick and easy access to the pads. A cast-in bridge does allow for a stiffer caliper (that the GM caliper does not have) but is a bit of a hindrance. Is the rather small caliper body strength advantage really something that can be exploited on the street? Hardly.

I made no such inference regarding the 5.2 FPC engine. It won't be used in the GT500 and as such, has no relevance here. The GT500 will use a FI CPC Coyote variant that will need adequate cooling to stave off heat soak. There have been reports that the ZL1-1LE has gone limp when pushed at the track under some relatively high ambient temperatures. If Ford can mitigate this issue I'd be surprised as GM is using something like 11 coolers on their hottest pony car.

Don't confuse Ford for GM.

 

[Epiphany]

I disagree with most everything in your post. I feel the need to stop this conversation that is somewhat off-topic to the GT500. We can just agree to disagree about whether the equipment Ford puts in their modern Mustangs is competitive for their intended usage and whether it's good for track usage, makes the cars great to drive, etc, etc. I don't think you will convince me that Ford is less than a leader in that regard.

However, first I'd like to ask you what the difference is in caliper deformation vs. load with versus without the cast in bridge? You say it's small, so does that mean you know the magnitude of the difference? Or are you just guessing that it's small?

I couldn't disagree more with you.

My point isn't whether Ford is a "leader", etc. It is simply that they are lagging in comparison to what GM has done with the ZL1-1LE. It's a seesaw battle throughout history. Right now, GM has put forth an effort that Ford will have to match or top. In order to do that Ford will have to get serious about simple details that they have ignored in the past - I've mentioned a number of them. There's a reason they are benchmarking the Camaro (and some other pretty serious company) with the GT500 and it isn't just for fun.

Regarding the caliper I will only share what I know to you in this way... Ford sought for a stiff knuckle, hub, caliper mount arrangement (radial), and a caliper that was as stiff as possible to provide the best feel at the pedal. This is straight from the individual at Ford responsible for the GT350's braking system. Did they achieve their goal? Many would argue that yes, they absolutely did. Forget data as that isn't shared - you simply have to trust that you are being told the truth and in this case I do. GM has no doubt sought to achieve the same result, albeit in slightly different fashion.

Of note, the Ford Mustang GT4 car. Uses a Brembo caliper/rotor, bullet-nose wheel stud, traditional 6061-T6 billet aluminum had and iron ring, a Brembo caliper without a cast-in bridge, and Multimatic dampers. Serious hardware on an extremely competitive car. Here is Dean's Nano car from last season to illustrate...

The ZL1-1LE (and not the only Camaro variant to follow this path) uses a Brembo caliper/rotor, bullet-nose wheel stud, traditional 6061-T6 billet aluminum had and iron ring, a Brembo caliper without a cast-in bridge, and Multimatic dampers.

The above should make you pause and think about this even if only for a moment. The ZL1-1LE is more like the Mustang GT4 is than Ford's own Mustang! Bottom line, the ball is in Ford's court and we shall see how serious they are with the upcoming GT500.

Don't confuse Ford for GM.

In what way?

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