How far should we upgrade?

[858GT350]

I have a 2016 GT350. I’ll take some criticism here, some fair, that it has the HPE 850 package by Hennessey on it. I had Lund and DBR completely re-do the tuning on the car to get it more dialed in. I have some carbon fiber upgrades going on as well both on interior and exterior. My plans are to put an E85 fuel system upgrade on it with new injectors, pumps, tune, the whole nine. Because Ford duped the 16 Tech Pack owners, I’m putting rear dif and transmission coolers on it to avoid limp mode. Plus upgrading clutch and drive shaft, etc.

The last step would be fortifying the internals of the motor. I’M A ROOKIE at all this. So forgive my ignorance. My concern is with the reliability of the motor on the FPC Ford engine. I’ve heard a lot of oil consumption issues (mine does go through oil but not at the rate of some that I’ve read). I’ve heard some reliability issues and motors being replaced. I don’t know that I want to dump money into the upgrades only to have the motor crap out. Can you actually fortify the motor?

The other option is to do some more basic upgrades, sell it, and move into a 911 Turbo S or GTR or something like that. Either way, it’s spending money for sure. Kind of turning into a hobby I suppose. Just not sure I want to spend the big money on the 350 if the engine can’t handle it.

Just hoping to learn a little. I’ve read some of the other forum topics and learned about the basics (superchargers, cooling options, clutch options) but haven’t seen much on internal motor upgrades. If there is a thread and missed it, my bad, feel free to link it!

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[sumfoo1]

How far do you want to go?

As a person incessantly looking to modify vehicles it’s my opinion that this car is in the “sweet spot” in my opinion. Cars like the turbo s and gtrs get really expensive once the driveline becomes the limiting factor should you go crazy, built autos or a face plated t56 mag are options that will hold 4 digit power reliably.

My understanding that the 5.2 block is the strongest modular block and with some sleeves and the right rod and piston setup could also be reliable deep into 4 digit power


Sorry I typed this with someone laying on my right arm

 

[AirBusPilot]

Get the Turbo S. Absolute rock solid reliability (search YouTube, there’s a video of someone doing launch control 50 or 100 times without issue). I just bought a 991 Turbo S and you’ll never look back.

Forget the GTR.

 

[mkonrad]

I’d say it’s more important -where- you want to go. If you’re drag racing, there may never be an end to the power. If you auto cross the class will limit you. And the only time I wanted more power last weekend at an hpde at cota was being passed by cars with huge aero advantages on a long straight - I doubt there’s much to be done with the S550 and I know I was the limit rather than the engine.

I think the engine failure data collection thread has too much confirmation bias. A dead engine is a piece of evidence, but predicting the failure from forum data may not be reasonable.

 

[nastang87xx]

The engine internals are fully forged. Crank, rods (a traditional and notorious weak spot for Fords), and the pistons. Fully. Smash. Press. FORGED. With split ends. Meaning rod ends and rods must go with each other per piece and are not interchangeable even from one cylinder to the next. Not powder forged. Not hypereutectic. They internals are stout. Now yes there are varying degrees of forging, but it seems like the Voodoo is pretty okay being under some boost. This isn't the 80's and 90's anymore where high compression instantly blew up a motor under boost because of the total compression charge was too much for locked out timing or when you were tuning the thing for variable timing in the distributor you had too much timing to begin with and it was too late. Advances in metallurgy, knock control, and air fuel mixture delivery have contributed to much higher degrees of reliability. I'd say you're fine with a reasonable boost level like what you're running. I'm guessing 11lbs?

Also, the crank design has had absolutely zero to do with failures. It's just a crank, really. I have yet to hear of a single crank failure. Lund has said they see Coyote cranks cook all the time under boost with "certain brands of superchargers" which I'm guessing are the centrifugal guys and probably due to harmonic issues.

 

[oldbmwfan]

Get the Turbo S. Absolute rock solid reliability (search YouTube, there’s a video of someone doing launch control 50 or 100 times without issue). I just bought a 991 Turbo S and you’ll never look back.

Forget the GTR.

I have it on good authority that durability sign-off testing on the GT350 also included 50+ consecutive launch control starts; they just didn't advertise it explicitly.

I'm not worried about engine reliability; I'm more concerned about general Ford quality related to the GT350 being a $25k Mustang with a $50k driveline and suspension. Blower motors, switchgear, all that "regular stuff" is chintzy by comparison to a Porsche, but that's also why you get Porsche performance for 3-series money.

OP, the other cars you're describing feel very different to drive. I've gone back-to-back between my car and a GT-R (see avatar photo), and while the GT-R is an extremely capable car, I'd take the GT350R any day of the week.

 

[AirBusPilot]

50 launches in a row, no limp mode, same performance each time.

 

[oldbmwfan]

And .... ?

I never claimed Porsche didn't do it. I claimed that Ford did the same. Ford's component and sub-system durability testing is pretty extreme. My point is that what Porsche accomplished with that particular test isn't terribly special.

Similarly, the GT350's brakes are spec'd to allow basically indefinite track driving without ever overheating, and they achieve that. You can basically run non-stop until the pads are gone. That's a pretty impressive trait in a $60k car with the speed potential of the Shelby (for comparison, even with Hawk DTC70 pads, my 135i with 6-piston Brembo calipers from the factory can overheat the brakes in 20 minutes at Mid-Ohio).

Your 911 Turbo S is a sweet ride, but it should be at nearly 3x the price of the GT350. If the OP chooses to keep his GT350, that price difference buys a whole lotta mods and a spare car. I think we agree that the GT-R isn't a step up over either option.

 

[honeybadger]

I’d say it’s more important -where- you want to go. If you’re drag racing, there may never be an end to the power. If you auto cross the class will limit you. And the only time I wanted more power last weekend at an hpde at cota was being passed by cars with huge aero advantages on a long straight - I doubt there’s much to be done with the S550 and I know I was the limit rather than the engine.

I think the engine failure data collection thread has too much confirmation bias. A dead engine is a piece of evidence, but predicting the failure from forum data may not be reasonable.

Nice! Were you there with Edge Addicts on 10/6-7? Which GT350 were you in?

 

[AirBusPilot]

And .... ?

I never claimed Porsche didn't do it. I claimed that Ford did the same. Ford's component and sub-system durability testing is pretty extreme. My point is that what Porsche accomplished with that particular test isn't terribly special.

Similarly, the GT350's brakes are spec'd to allow basically indefinite track driving without ever overheating, and they achieve that. You can basically run non-stop until the pads are gone. That's a pretty impressive trait in a $60k car with the speed potential of the Shelby (for comparison, even with Hawk DTC70 pads, my 135i with 6-piston Brembo calipers from the factory can overheat the brakes in 20 minutes at Mid-Ohio).

Your 911 Turbo S is a sweet ride, but it should be at nearly 3x the price of the GT350. If the OP chooses to keep his GT350, that price difference buys a whole lotta mods and a spare car. I think we agree that the GT-R isn't a step up over either option.

I’m not really comparing the Porsche to the GT350, but to the GT-R, which after a couple of launches will go into limp mode (the OP was contemplating both of those alternatives).

Though, the GT350 would likely suffer clutch failure long before reaching 50 full launches in a row. But, yeah I agree the GT-R isn’t a step above either.

 

[mkonrad]

Nice! Were you there with Edge Addicts on 10/6-7? Which GT350 were you in?

Yes, in the yellow run group. As an Austinite Edge always seems to get me decent runtime. I was in the white with blue stripes, but I took the stripes off again. There were five think? Two red, yours with the wing, and two white/blue. My first time at COTA.

 

[Demonic]

I'm not worried about engine reliability; I'm more concerned about general Ford quality related to the GT350 being a $25k Mustang with a $50k driveline and suspension. Blower motors, switchgear, all that "regular stuff" is chintzy by comparison to a Porsche, but that's also why you get Porsche performance for 3-series money.

OP, the other cars you're describing feel very different to drive. I've gone back-to-back between my car and a GT-R (see avatar photo), and while the GT-R is an extremely capable car, I'd take the GT350R any day of the week.

A bit off topic, but since BMW’s are being mentioned, I think the same could be said about how the M cars are heavily massaged $30k base cars. Having had 5 BMW’s in my family, I’ve done extensive work on them, and am always disappointed in the cheap cost cutting measures that went into them starting in the 2000’s. The interior will be great, and the engine bay may look fancy, but once you get deep into the car it’s plastic upon plastic that’s brittle and falls apart, and was clearly designed for ease of assembly in the factory. As we speak, my E46 Xi beater is sitting in the driveway while I’m in the process of replacing the front axles for the 4th time. Even parts in the engine that flow coolant or oil that should have been simple hoses are instead plastic tubes and connectors that break. When I pop the hood of my R, it looks like an engine bay that was meant to be worked on. When I pop the hood of a modern M car I think about how underneath whatever carbon fiber brace on top they marketed the heck out of, is a heap of overly complex plastic parts I’ll be replacing. Ever replace the oil separator system on a 3 series? It’s a nightmare for what should have been something as simple as the GT350 system.

I don’t have the numbers available to know for sure, but I’m willing to bet the profit margin on the GT350/R is lower than on the M cars. I’ve always been a hardcore M guy, but seeing the GT350 engine layout, in my relatively limited Ford experience compared to the BMW’s I’m used to, I haven’t been disappointed yet. Of course that could change.

 

[oldbmwfan]

I’m not really comparing the Porsche to the GT350, but to the GT-R, which after a couple of launches will go into limp mode (the OP was contemplating both of those alternatives).

Though, the GT350 would likely suffer clutch failure long before reaching 50 full launches in a row. But, yeah I agree the GT-R isn’t a step above either.

That makes sense - yes the GT-R limp mode is an issue.
Like I said, a friend in FP said the GT350 LC durability test was basically the same as Porsche's ... not that I'm willing to duplicate it on my own car. ;-)

 

[oldbmwfan]

A bit off topic, but since BMW’s are being mentioned, I think the same could be said about how the M cars are heavily massaged $30k base cars. Having had 5 BMW’s in my family, I’ve done extensive work on them, and am always disappointed in the cheap cost cutting measures that went into them starting in the 2000’s.

There is a reason my username is "oldbmwfan." The BMWs are old; not me! Best car I ever owned was an E28 535is (and yes, I had an E28 M5 too but the 535is was a better all-around car). Drove an E34 touring with an engine and manual trans swap for years; my wife cried the day I sold that one. Now down to an E36 race car and a 1600-2 ... oh and I accidentally bought an E39 M5 a few weeks ago. Oops. The E39 may be the last great BMW, and even it has its flaws.

There is also a reason I now own 2 Fords after 20+ years of nothing but BMW. Fiesta ST and GT350R are the best BMWs you can buy today.

 

[nastang87xx]

I don’t have the numbers available to know for sure, but I’m willing to bet the profit margin on the GT350/R is lower than on the M cars.

I'd imagine so. If I remember right I think the dealer cost on a '16 GT350 Track Pack without stripes was stupid close to $50,000 on the nose.

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