Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

[TheLion]

Different tracks have focus on different attributes. The handling of the SS 1LE is darn close to as good if not as good as the GT350R. HOWEVER it lacks the power of the Voodoo 5.2L. 525 HP vs. 455 HP and the Voodoo has a MUCH broad power band, it's not just peak power it has an advantage on, it's how long of a rev range can it apply power over. 8250 RPM vs. 6600 RPM...no contest. On handling focused tracks where there's a premium on handling with few places to really stretch the legs of big power cars, they are neck and neck. On intermediate tracks the GT350R comes out decently ahead. On big power tracks like VIR, the GT350R womps it because it can leverage it's power advantage over the SS 1LE and both cars have similar handling, so it's no contest. If you stuck the voodoo 5.2L in the SS 1LE I'll bet it's be a tie between the 1LE and GT350R or PP2 which is also close handling wise.

Problem is, GM has no direct competitor to the GT350. The SS 1LE is much more equivalent to a Performance Package 2 2018 GT. The SS ZL1 makes 125 HP more than GT350. They are two different cars with two different focuses. The SS ZL1 1LE is more expensive than any of them and in a class of it's own. GT350R handling with ZL1 power. You'd need a FI variant of the GT350R to compete with the ZL1 1LE. The GT350R's handling makes up for some of it's power disadvantage comapred to the regular ZL1, so they run close depending on the track. Bigger tracks will slightly favor the ZL1, but smaller more handling focused tracks will shrink the gap and make the ZL1's substantial power advantage mush less applicable.

There are auto X tracks, even more extreme bias, where a MX-5 Miata will out run a $70k ZL1 1LE...the MX-5 makes 158 hp...yah it's lightweight at only 2300 lbs, but it's power to weight ratio is no where near a ZL1. Auto X is most often extreme handling, more so on transition than anything else. There is NO fastest car. Even in the extremes, a Formula car would get it's but handed to it by a top fuel dragster in a drag race. Yet the top fuel dragster couldn't even drive around a formula track...fastest is relative.

That's why I say the SS 1LE is about the same as a PP2 GT. They are so close, a different driver could very well have changed the balance. A different track. Different tires. So many variables. Sure, on that track, on that day with that driver the 1LE was a just a hair faster. But what if we put Probst up against a Ford team driver that runs the GT4's? I'll bet suddenly the PP2 GT would be faster.

What if that same team driver drove the 1LE slower than Probst? Now which car is faster....Probst is an excellent driver, but still far from the best. They are close enough that it's a drivers race. Also, it's not hard to add or remove a little bar. Probst may have very well run a half second faster with a little tweak in the suspension to his liking.

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[Mountain376]

Interesting review:

 

[thehunterooo]

Can clearly tell that guy is a fanboy who never drove the SS 1LE before.

 

[Mountain376]

Can clearly tell that guy is a fanboy who never drove the SS 1LE before.

It’s hard to tell how old the kid is, but he seems a bit lacking in quite a few technical aspects; not dumb, just not as in the know. However, he puts out entertaining videos.

 

[Must_Tang]

I'm sorry, another bullshit comparison. Different days can mean a +/- 3 second swing. There is nothing definitive as to which car is faster around the track from that article. I'm not saying the mustang should be faster, but motortrend doing a different day comparison is complete and utter bullshit.

Wah!

 

[TheLion]

1LE is actually a 1/10th slower in the 1/4 mile vs. a 1SS. 75 lbs more weight (1LE clocks in at 3747 lbs, 1SS at 3685). But on a track the 1LE smokes a PP1 GT and is about dead even with a PP2 GT assuming the PP2 GT doesn't over heat. But the PP2 wasn't meant to compete against the 1LE, Ford reps even publicly stated it wasn't intended as a track car and they still focus on the GT350 as their track variant which easily bests a 1LE in power and is on par handling wise. It's even lighter than the 1LE. How fast do you want to go depends on how much you want to spend....or how high the mfg. is willing to price the car.

I have not found any design attributes that make the Alpha chassis inherently superior to the S550 chassis. Base model to base model they are only 20 lbs apart 3685 vs. 3705. 2018 GT's carry a power advantage and I'm not talking the 5 peak HP. 2018's with the 3rd gen 5.0 make a much higher average power hold OVER 400 wheel horses from 5,500 to 7,500. The LT1 is a great engine and about the same power as a Power Pack 2 2nd Gen 5.0, but it only breaks 400 whp from 5,500 rpm to 6,250 rpm, so it's average power is significantly less and that's why in longer drag races like the 1/2 and 1 mile it gets smoked big time.

Where the SS rules is factory suspension tuning. Both cars have dual ball joint / MacPhearson strut front ends, both cars have independent rears, both cars have 54/46 weight distribution, nearly identical ride height, center of gravity, track widths, roof line heights etc. It all comes down to who tunes their suspensions better from the factory if your comparing stock to stock. If your going after market...well there's tons of S550's that out race Alphas and visa versa. It might be a different story if we were comparing a civic to an S550 or Alpha, one might actually say the S550 and Alpha are superior performance chassis due to actual architecture which isn't easy to change. But tuning can be done to the sky and back on either chassis.

 

[wildcatgoal]

From a 2016 owner's perspective (thus I didn't have access to Magnaride in a Mustang without getting a 350), the 1LE's weight on a vertical plain is materially lower to the ground in large part due to the fact its engine does not have 4 camshafts on top. It does not body roll or understeer nearly as much as the 2016 GT PP. Additionally, the 1LE in stock form is wider outside of wheel to outside of wheel than my Mustang with 285 square tires and track camber on ET35 19x10.5" wheels (which push out to the fender wells). The 1LE comes with a superior transmission, at least (but not limited to) in terms of its strength, as well. The Camaro's rear suspension is simpler (see video), too. The seat position (despite awful side visibility) is lower in the car so you're vision can be in the middle of the windshield. In my Mustang, let's say I'm lucky I can even put a helmet on with how ridiculously high the seats are.

The 1LE is an enthusiast design within a narrower model range. Ford was smart with its wide, wide model range full of capable, accessible cars. Doesn't make the Mustang GT (even a PP2) better than the 1LE. It's a compliment to the 1LE that it gets compared to, and sometimes exceeds the capability of, a GT350 (non R). That's incredible. It's a great car. I wish I had one.

 

[TheLion]

Head's aren't adding a lot of weight up top for CG. Your also forgetting that the LT1 weighs 20 lbs more than a 2nd gen 5.0 and 25 lbs more than a 3rd gen 5.0. Stock LT1 is 465 lbs. Stock 2nd gen 5.0 is 445 lbs and a stock 3rd gen 5.0 is 440 lbs (plastic oil pan).

The PP(1) GT was not in any way intended to compete with a 1LE and it never was. It's performance is set up more like a 1SS/2SS as a fun street car first and for most that still has decent ride quality that you could play around with at the track for short runs. The GT350 is Ford's actual answer to the 1LE and in every single track test I've seen the 1LE looses stock to stock. It just can't compete against the track focused R.

I'm sorry but auto x is a pretty dumb comparison and a waste of either car's capabilities (I'm not suggesting it isn't fun, but neither of these cars are built for auto X, you can find modded Civics that could beat both at Auto x...). A 150 hp Miata can beat both of those cars bone stock on a small Auto X course...it's extremely biased towards cheap to own ultra lightweight momentum cars that place a premium on transitions. Once you go to an actual high speed track the Miata, which dominates Auto X type driving, just falls flat on it's face comparatively and doesn't come anywhere even close.

The GT350 also uses the Tremec 6060, same transmission as the Alpha based SS. Vanilla GT's get an MT-82 which is not as good of quality as you mentioned, but can be good enough with some good fluid and aluminum arm bushings. It's also a cheaper car (PP GT) with substantially more livable attributes and far more parts support. But as far as weight, the 1LE making 70 HP less weighs 35 lbs more than the GT350R (3713 vs 3747).

I'd argue most of that difference is in the wheels and missing rear seat in the R, so the two chassis are nearly identical and base models show that as well. Base model S550 to base model Alpha it's 3705 vs 3685...20 lbs. I still can't wrap my head around why people think the GT is heavier with a higher center of gravity. CG is determined as much by ride height as it is by engine and component location and neither the Coyote nor the LT1 are going to get any lower down in the chassis in either car, neither will their transmissions. The 5.0 is wider dimensionally, but not taller than the LT1 and it's total weight is actually less. The LT1's heads are just as tall, but they are less than half as wide because of the cam in block design. But it also has more piston mass and block mass because of the larger bore, so I think saying the LT1's contributions to COG are pretty sketchy at best.

Ride height has everything to do with chassis tuning and is the other side of the CG coin. It's set higher from the factory in the GT as their aim is more of a street car in the PP GT's. GT350 sits 3/4" lower in the front and about 1/2" lower in the rear with an adjusted roll center. The 1SS/2SS has a higher ride height that is comparable to a PP GT stock to stock. You can even buy 1LE lower springs, struts and lateral links for a lowered SS with corrected front end geometry from GM or option a 1/2SS with a factory lowering kit.

One would have to compare the GT350R's dimensions to the 1LE to really jump to any conclusions about maximum track width potential of either car. The GT350(R) is a production sheet-metal S550 unibody with suspension tuning, engine / trans, tires / wheels and auxiliary equipment focused for actual track work. So Ford's product line has a wider scope as you mentioned. You can literally buy all the GT350R parts and bolt them onto a PP GT...including the voodoo 5.2 and Tremec TR6060. Or you could just buy all the suspension parts and have a GT250R (yah I made that up, but a GT350R with a regular 3rd Gen 5.0 would be a direct and equal competitor to a 1LE). That Voodoo 5.2 alone is a $15k engine, combined with the non-standard TR6060 trans and there's a big chunk of the price difference).

What Ford lacks is a direct competitor to the 1LE aka they need a GT250R that has a regular 3rd gen 5.0 in it and instead of carbon fiber wheels just some lightweight Forged Aluminum wheels like the 1LE. That would make the two very comparable in terms of tuning, power, tires etc.

Comparing the 2nd Gen 5.0 that is ported injected to a direct injected LT1 is also not a fair comparison. The 2nd Gen 5.0 is comparable to the LS3 in the outgoing 2015 SS stock to stock, both are port injected with VVT. The 5.0 is superior (more power and longer rev range). And forget FI, ask the drag guys, I've seen several come over from the SS to the 5.0 because of how much you have to put into the LT1 for FI to get past 600 whp. The 5.0 just flows very well out of the box, has a ton of factory options (2018 manifolds or GT350 manifolds), already has a rotating assembly that can handle 7,500 RPM and 9 to 10 PSI boost on pump gas...

Heck a 2nd Gen 5.0 with a Power Pack 2 makes more average power than the DI LT1 (about 15 to 20 hp on average in the upper most 4,000 RPM of each engine). 3rd gen blows both away making over 400 whp from 5,500 all the way out to 7,500 rpm stock to stock. LT1 and Power Pack 2 2nd Gen 5.0 can only manage over 400 whp for about 750 rpm worth of bandwidth (from about 5,500 to 6,250 for the LT1 and 5,500 to 6,500 for Power Pack 2 5.0).

The SS is a great car and it absolutely offers far more out of the box than the 2015-2017's from a pure performance standpoint. But it's potential is also far more tapped into.It's notably harder to make substantial improvements. Where the S550 gains performance by substantial leaps and bounds with a few simple changes. The two cars are just set up differently in their factory configs with GM focusing on the performance nut crowd while Ford focusing on the typical hot rodder or average person who also really enjoys just touring as much as corner carving. But for the performance nut crowd there's their Factory Performance division (Ford Performance) whose bread and butter is OE quality, warranty friendly, emissions legal engine modifications (which are still pretty conservative compared to most after market) and a massive after market support. Yah, I type a lot, get over it

 

[Grimace427]

The GT350 also uses the Tremec 6060, same transmission as the Alpha based SS.

The GT350 uses the Tremec 3160, a lighter duty transmission than the 6060.

 

[Hack]

The GT350 uses the Tremec 3160, a lighter duty transmission than the 6060.

The 3160 is a lighter weight transmission. In the case of the GT350, Ford said that they redesigned the transmission internals for strength and durability.

Point being, I see the lighter weight transmission as a positive, not a negative. I would rather not have more weight in the car than necessary.

 

[Grimace427]

The 3160 is a lighter weight transmission. In the case of the GT350, Ford said that they redesigned the transmission internals for strength and durability.

Point being, I see the lighter weight transmission as a positive, not a negative. I would rather not have more weight in the car than necessary.

I made no inclination that I thought the 3160 was inferior, simply pointing out the error of the person I quoted above.

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