10R80 on the curvy (road race) track

[sdiver68]

Thanks for making my point.

A conventional, modern automatic with more gears. The kind no one uses to road race.

But have fun. For a street car on track, my biggest concern with it would be heat.

In other words you dont understand modern transmissions.

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[Cobra Jet]

For those that missed the thread I posted before, here’s the most tech regarding the 10R80 and equivalent 10L90:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/10r80-and-gm-equivalent-10l90-good-reading.107942/

 

[Grintch]

In other words you dont understand modern transmissions.

Google descriptions for when they were introduced of the ZF 8 speed, the various 6 speed autos from 20 years ago. All pretty much the same claims, and same basic technology, just more gears.


They always brag about how much faster they shift. Yet in the case of the 10 speed, with almost twice the number of gears the number of shifts 0-60 is unchanged, and the number in the quarter mile appears unchanged (possibly 1 more). If the shifts are so super fast, why not use some of those extra gears to provide a gear ratio advantage.

 

[sdiver68]

Google descriptions for when they were introduced of the ZF 8 speed, the various 6 speed autos from 20 years ago. All pretty much the same claims, and same basic technology, just more gears.


They always brag about how much faster they shift. Yet in the case of the 10 speed, with almost twice the number of gears the number of shifts 0-60 is unchanged, and the number in the quarter mile appears unchanged (possibly 1 more). If the shifts are so super fast, why not use some of those extra gears to provide a gear ratio advantage.

I dont have to Google it, I've had most of those ZF versions in various BMW Sport packages. And many of the copies that followed. Also have had PDC (Porsche), DCT (Audi), and test drove an early single clutch SMG which I passed on due to clunkiness in the e46 M3.

When the 6spd ZF was tuned for sport in my then new 2006 335i I embarrassed many M3s on a road course with it. There is a large difference between that technology and old school autos...until recently most auto makers were using old tech autos, even high end manufacturers until you opted for the various sport upgrade packages.

0-60 is traction limited. Trap speeds in the 1/4th are higher now, ETs lower. Regardless, I hope we can agree on the large benefit of perfect <100s rev matching multi-gear downshifts in road racing. And the guaranteed consistency of click shifting over the course of multiple laps.

 

[Grintch]

What new technology? That is what googling would show you. The ZF 8 from 5+ years ago (which I know had a similar Car and Driver tech description as for the 10R80) makes basicly the same claims as the new 10 speed. As did the prior generation of 6 speeds, the 5 speeds before that, and the 4 speeds before that. They all had better/more efficient lockup torque converters & clutches and faster shifting. Probably the biggest technology upgrade happened 20 years ago with the introduction of electronic controls and paddle shifting. The bigest improvement in the latest generation is just getting all those gears in essentially the same size and weight package as an old 6 speed auto.

There is no shame in it as the average auto has certainly made more progress than the average manual over the same period. But some form of sequential manual is THE choice in top flight road racing, counter to your original statement about autos taking over motorsports that started this whole argument.

 

[sdiver68]

But some form of sequential manual is THE choice in top flight road racing, counter to your original statement about autos taking over motorsports that started this whole argument.

The tech is merging, I think that's the point. Sequential manuals ARE autos.

 

[Grintch]

Wrong.

Look at the C&D tech piece diagram on the 10R80. Now compare it to a Hewland, Xtrac, Quaif, etc. racing sequential. Not even close. Actually Hewland used to make one of it's gearboxes with an option for traditional H pattern or sequential shifting. Which is an indication of how close the basic manual gearbox technology is. Even a F1 style semi auto is mostly just an automated shift sequential box.

P. S. also look at a ratio diagram for the 10R80. Nowhere near a racing gearbox, nor even a particularly good use of 10 ratios. How hard is it to change ratios in an auto? That would seem to be a good place for performance development.

 

[TicTocTach]

I would guess that in an autoX situation, the A10 would be decent if not good. After 25 years of manual transmissions exclusively, I chose the A10 in my EBPP in part to take advantage of the drive mode technology out there now, partly because I feel like turbos and autos play well together, and partly to make autoX shifting easier. For a car with good torque and reasonable gearing, you might only shift once - well, my old Plymouth could run most of the courses in my area in 2nd gear. My Shelby Daytona was back and forth between 2nd and 3rd, and that always cost me time.

My hope is that even if I do have to bounce between 2nd and 3rd, I can manage that better with the paddles or let it manage on its own. I have never driven on a road course, but it seems like the same situations would be present there as well. Regardless of how well it works, it's what I have as my daily driver and will hopefully spend as much time on the autoX as my old Plymouth.

Subscribed to see where this thread goes...

 

[Andy13186]

Google descriptions for when they were introduced of the ZF 8 speed, the various 6 speed autos from 20 years ago. All pretty much the same claims, and same basic technology, just more gears.


They always brag about how much faster they shift. Yet in the case of the 10 speed, with almost twice the number of gears the number of shifts 0-60 is unchanged, and the number in the quarter mile appears unchanged (possibly 1 more). If the shifts are so super fast, why not use some of those extra gears to provide a gear ratio advantage.

There are 2 shifts to get to 60 with the 10 speed with 3.55's one is right before 60 though so that probably not great for 0-60 time. 1-2 at 35mph 2-3 at 55mph. In the 1/4 mile I think you shift into 6th around 109 mph

Interesting article here :

https://www.motortrend.com/news/why...automatic-is-so-much-quicker-than-the-manual/

And I absolutely guarantee id be a whole lot faster with this auto on a track than a manual if the speeds changed enough to require alot of shifting or heel toe downshifting. Paddle shifting is so much easier than heel toe and you can concentrate on your lines alot more.

 

[Cdnspeed]

Grentch is on Point, the A10 is no different than any other Automatic Transmission out there in a conventional car, it just newer and slightly more advanced, You cannot compare it to a true dual clutch transmission, sequential or dog box.

Your arguement about having 6 clutch packs is Null, All Torque Converter based Transmissions have several clutch packs and solenoids to control them.

 

[armykyle1 [HACKED ACCOUNT]

The A10 is still a true auto. But it doesn't operate like the 6r80 or other transmissions. The torque converter is only used for take off and locks almost instantly essentially acting like a DCT transmission. The torque converter doesn't unlock during up shifts or down shifts. It drives almost identically to my buddy's 2015 M5. The shift speed seems the same. The A10 is a bit smoother than SMG too. On a long road course, I don't see a manual car being faster than a 10r80 car. The track mode shift strategy is pretty awesome. On an auto X course, a true manual might have a slight advantage. All that being said, I have zero regrets about trading in my FBO 15 GTPP for a 2018 GTPP with a A10.

 

[Cdnspeed]

My only concern with the A10 would be the amount of shifting per lap and how would the Solenoids and internal clutches hold up, there would be significant wear in a year of lapping IMO

 

[Jetnoise]

In other words you dont understand modern transmissions.

Sounds like you already now it all. Based on Your original post maybe this subject can be your personal tourch to carry and enlighten us all on how it should be done
Once you figure it out

 

[sdiver68]

Sounds like you already now it all. Based on Your original post maybe this subject can be your personal tourch to carry and enlighten us all on how it should be done
Once you figure it out

I asked if anyone is developing it, not if it should be done. Like you said, that part is known. The potential known issue to deal with is heat.

 

[Jetnoise]

I asked if anyone is developing it, not if it should be done. Like you said, that part is known. The potential known issue to deal with is heat.

So what was the original question again?
Ford's "track cars" seem to be manual trans only
If Ford offered it maybe a "tuner" would follow the lead.
You could always work for a formula 1 team every other weekend on your time off and get the knowledge first hand and start your own boutique

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