Oil pressure drop at the track

[dejxx]

So, i was on my first track day with the new Mustang GT 2018 auto with PP. Only change made to the car was a new oil filter and Mobil 1 5w30 oil. Car has 2.000km (around 1.200 miles). Consider myself an advance/agressive driver (raced in local leagues before, and more than 30 track days in several cars).
All was good for the first laps, then all of the sudden i felt a drop in power, and the trans wouldnt let me shift above 5.000rpm. but NO warning or message appeared.

Let the car cool down (for some reason i cant see my oil temp anywhere, just oil pressure and other stuff). Went back into the track, and after 2 laps, same thing happend.

After seeing my onboard again, i realize i start the first lap with around 75-90psi under full throttle, and then the pressure keeps gradually coming down to around 40psi (maybe a little less) when the power cuts down.

What may be happening? Is it just the oil getting too hot? is the lack of a dedicated oil cooler that bad? (i live in Brazil, track temps are usually around 80-100F) or it might be something more?

Going to take it to Ford for a read and see what was happening when the power cutted off.

Appreciate any insights, since i doubt Ford will find something...

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[DickR]

How much oil did you put in with the oil change? 18's use 10 quarts rather than the 8 quarts the 15 - 17's used.

 

[dejxx]

How much oil did you put in with the oil change? 18's use 10 quarts rather than the 8 quarts the 15 - 17's used.

10 quarts or 9.5lts as the manual says. Messured the oil before going to the track and it was in the full line (i believe)

 

[dejxx]

Quick update. Took it to Ford dealership to scan any possible codes (no warning or lights on). Code P0298:00-68 showed up (Engine Oil Over Temperature).

So, it seems the car cutted down power when the oil got too hot. But maybe not hot enough for a warning? Its wierd.

 

[jacknifetoaswan]

If I were you, before my next track day, I'd be adding one of these oil filter relocation kits, plus a decently sized oil cooler!

http://www.modularmotorsportsracing.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=903

JR

 

[dejxx]

If I were you, before my next track day, I'd be adding one of these oil filter relocation kits, plus a decently sized oil cooler!

http://www.modularmotorsportsracing.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=903

JR

Sorry for my ignorance, but what does this kit do exactly?

 

[jacknifetoaswan]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what does this kit do exactly?

There's a fitting that goes onto the block, in place of the oil filter, and it relocates the oil filter to an area that's more advantageous, such as the fender. It would be way easier to change the filter, for one, but it really gives two MASSIVE improvements over stock - 1) you can run a larger filter, and there are even kits that allow you to run dual filters, and 2) you can use additional hose to include an aftermarket oil cooler without an external pump. Second order effects are that the larger filter, plus the lines, and the cooler, will allow you to get more oil in, which increases your cooling capacity, and you don't have to permanently alter the vehicle, like you would if you drilled and tapped the oil pan for a cooling line.

JR

 

[dejxx]

There's a fitting that goes onto the block, in place of the oil filter, and it relocates the oil filter to an area that's more advantageous, such as the fender. It would be way easier to change the filter, for one, but it really gives two MASSIVE improvements over stock - 1) you can run a larger filter, and there are even kits that allow you to run dual filters, and 2) you can use additional hose to include an aftermarket oil cooler without an external pump. Second order effects are that the larger filter, plus the lines, and the cooler, will allow you to get more oil in, which increases your cooling capacity, and you don't have to permanently alter the vehicle, like you would if you drilled and tapped the oil pan for a cooling line.

JR

Does this workss on the 2018? My biggest concer is that apparently the 2018 dont have ann oil temp sensor. It takes the temp from a calculated "table" sort of saying. So no ideia if a oil temp gauge would worK?

Also, can you fit na oil cooler without this kit?

 

[ddozier]

Your oil temps are calculated based on CHT (cylinder head temp), Run Time, and RPM along with a bunch of other things.

Since you have an 2018 Auto PP but built for a foreign market there may be a bunch of changes compared to a US Domestic build. I would look to see if it has the Oil Cooler and larger radiator found on US Mustangs. If the radiator or the oil cooler are not there I would add them or build a dedicated oil cooler system. The Auto trans will likely add a very large heat load to the engine coolant system as well, that would be the next area of concern I would look at. Separating the Oil, Coolant, and Trans into three separate systems would be ideal to fixing each systems heat load. With them all tied together it will be harder to determine what areas need to be addressed and how much additional cooling will be needed.

The Engine Oil, Trans, and Diff are all areas of concern of over heating on cars pushed hard on track. Ambient above 80*F will need to error on the side of a larger cooler for each system. Personally if you like driving the car on track and use 6500+ RPMs regularly then I do not think you can put a large enough oil cooler on the car and I would put the largest cooler I could fit into the space you have to put it. The OEM GT350 oil coolers are barely adequate for track use so think bigger then that. My track car builds get a 60 row stacked plate cooler with -12AN lines and we are running low 200*F when running hard and using the higher RPM ranges. If I could fit a larger cooler I would have but on a dedicated track car the 60 row works for HPDE work with back to back 25 min sessions being run. For true race conditions or endurance racing I would want it to be even larger.

If the car thinks its hot it likely is but the real temp would be nice to know for sure so you can decide on what may or may not be needed. If you decide to add coolers I would also add a real temp gauge to all the cooling systems so you know what is really going on.

Dave

 

[dejxx]

Your oil temps are calculated based on CHT (cylinder head temp), Run Time, and RPM along with a bunch of other things.

Since you have an 2018 Auto PP but built for a foreign market there may be a bunch of changes compared to a US Domestic build. I would look to see if it has the Oil Cooler and larger radiator found on US Mustangs. If the radiator or the oil cooler are not there I would add them or build a dedicated oil cooler system. The Auto trans will likely add a very large heat load to the engine coolant system as well, that would be the next area of concern I would look at. Separating the Oil, Coolant, and Trans into three separate systems would be ideal to fixing each systems heat load. With them all tied together it will be harder to determine what areas need to be addressed and how much additional cooling will be needed.

The Engine Oil, Trans, and Diff are all areas of concern of over heating on cars pushed hard on track. Ambient above 80*F will need to error on the side of a larger cooler for each system. Personally if you like driving the car on track and use 6500+ RPMs regularly then I do not think you can put a large enough oil cooler on the car and I would put the largest cooler I could fit into the space you have to put it. The OEM GT350 oil coolers are barely adequate for track use so think bigger then that. My track car builds get a 60 row stacked plate cooler with -12AN lines and we are running low 200*F when running hard and using the higher RPM ranges. If I could fit a larger cooler I would have but on a dedicated track car the 60 row works for HPDE work with back to back 25 min sessions being run. For true race conditions or endurance racing I would want it to be even larger.

If the car thinks its hot it likely is but the real temp would be nice to know for sure so you can decide on what may or may not be needed. If you decide to add coolers I would also add a real temp gauge to all the cooling systems so you know what is really going on.

Dave

Thanks so much for the info Dave. Will look for the oil cooler and larger radiator, but i imagine Ford Brazil did put them, since the climate here is considerable hot.
As far as oil coolers go, any recommendation for a kit? Right now i cant find any. Just universal ones, Mishimoto or other brands. As radiator goes, Mishimoto makes one that will be a direct fit, so probably go that way. Trans cooler, im going to wait for a proven solution, this new trans is tricky.

Again, thanks for all the info! gave me quite a good ideia of what to improve.

 

[ddozier]

Thanks so much for the info Dave. Will look for the oil cooler and larger radiator, but i imagine Ford Brazil did put them, since the climate here is considerable hot.
As far as oil coolers go, any recommendation for a kit? Right now i cant find any. Just universal ones, Mishimoto or other brands. As radiator goes, Mishimoto makes one that will be a direct fit, so probably go that way. Trans cooler, im going to wait for a proven solution, this new trans is tricky.

Again, thanks for all the info! gave me quite a good ideia of what to improve.

If you have the US spec PP radiator they are very efficient at cooling the car, at least with a manual trans and the coolant based heat exchanger oil cooler found on our PP cars. Ford uses the US manual PP Radiator in their track car builds and have not had a need to change them. I would break this into stages and I would focus on cooling the trans first and removing it from the engine coolant system if they are joined together. then test and make sure you have enough cooling for the trans and see if the heat load from the trans was putting you over the edge on coolant and oil temps. Auto trans can generate a lot of heat and that is being absorbed into the engine coolant system and by default the oil cooler system.

In the US most guys running on track days with manual trans are not having coolant or oil over temp issues, especially on street tires. The added heat load from the trans is my guess, and would be nice to have separated anyway. It will also be the easiest thing to separate as you just need to disconnect the lines at the radiator and plumb in a large heat exchanger and mount it. You do not have to add pumps or fans or anything else to test this out.

I am wondering if Ford used the regular radiator since the PP radiators in the US do not have provisions for the auto trans cooler. They could have easily added them but they could have also down graded the radiator to the regular GT radiator and called it good. I guess you could measure the core thickness of the radiator and we can compare to a US spec PP rad and have a better idea of what they put in your car.

US PP radiator is 1.5" Thick and 25.25" wide measuring only the core not the side tanks. I believe the non-PP radiators are 1.0" or 1.25" thick.

Dave

 

[dejxx]

If you have the US spec PP radiator they are very efficient at cooling the car, at least with a manual trans and the coolant based heat exchanger oil cooler found on our PP cars. Ford uses the US manual PP Radiator in their track car builds and have not had a need to change them. I would break this into stages and I would focus on cooling the trans first and removing it from the engine coolant system if they are joined together. then test and make sure you have enough cooling for the trans and see if the heat load from the trans was putting you over the edge on coolant and oil temps. Auto trans can generate a lot of heat and that is being absorbed into the engine coolant system and by default the oil cooler system.

In the US most guys running on track days with manual trans are not having coolant or oil over temp issues, especially on street tires. The added heat load from the trans is my guess, and would be nice to have separated anyway. It will also be the easiest thing to separate as you just need to disconnect the lines at the radiator and plumb in a large heat exchanger and mount it. You do not have to add pumps or fans or anything else to test this out.

I am wondering if Ford used the regular radiator since the PP radiators in the US do not have provisions for the auto trans cooler. They could have easily added them but they could have also down graded the radiator to the regular GT radiator and called it good. I guess you could measure the core thickness of the radiator and we can compare to a US spec PP rad and have a better idea of what they put in your car.

US PP radiator is 1.5" Thick and 25.25" wide measuring only the core not the side tanks. I believe the non-PP radiators are 1.0" or 1.25" thick.

Dave

Good info! Will messuare the Rad and see whats there. Also going to check the Trans cooling. Funny think, when the issue first happend i thought it was the trans overheating, but the dashboard gauge for trans temp wasnt hot at all... just normal operating temp.

 

[dejxx]

If you have the US spec PP radiator they are very efficient at cooling the car, at least with a manual trans and the coolant based heat exchanger oil cooler found on our PP cars. Ford uses the US manual PP Radiator in their track car builds and have not had a need to change them. I would break this into stages and I would focus on cooling the trans first and removing it from the engine coolant system if they are joined together. then test and make sure you have enough cooling for the trans and see if the heat load from the trans was putting you over the edge on coolant and oil temps. Auto trans can generate a lot of heat and that is being absorbed into the engine coolant system and by default the oil cooler system.

In the US most guys running on track days with manual trans are not having coolant or oil over temp issues, especially on street tires. The added heat load from the trans is my guess, and would be nice to have separated anyway. It will also be the easiest thing to separate as you just need to disconnect the lines at the radiator and plumb in a large heat exchanger and mount it. You do not have to add pumps or fans or anything else to test this out.

I am wondering if Ford used the regular radiator since the PP radiators in the US do not have provisions for the auto trans cooler. They could have easily added them but they could have also down graded the radiator to the regular GT radiator and called it good. I guess you could measure the core thickness of the radiator and we can compare to a US spec PP rad and have a better idea of what they put in your car.

US PP radiator is 1.5" Thick and 25.25" wide measuring only the core not the side tanks. I believe the non-PP radiators are 1.0" or 1.25" thick.

Dave

So, messured the Rad ann its the PP one. Oil cooler is there, with the filter. Its really bothering me... reviewed the vídeo, and the power cut happend only after 3 laps (1.18 min each lap), so no more than 8 mins into the track (even thou its a really fast track). Once with gearbox in S and auto mode, and the other with gearbox in S and manual mode (in auto the gearbox is REALLY agressive, all the time above 6k rpm). Trans never went over the 110C (230F, 3rd mark in the gauge), cilinder head temp never went over 120C (250F), and pressure seems to be normal (after watching a dozen vídeos of 2018 mustangs on the track).

Is this normal or there is a problem im not seeing? (faulty oil filter, clumped line, etc?)

 

[ddozier]

So, messured the Rad ann its the PP one. Oil cooler is there, with the filter. Its really bothering me... reviewed the vídeo, and the power cut happend only after 3 laps (1.18 min each lap), so no more than 8 mins into the track (even thou its a really fast track). Once with gearbox in S and auto mode, and the other with gearbox in S and manual mode (in auto the gearbox is REALLY agressive, all the time above 6k rpm). Trans never went over the 110C (230F, 3rd mark in the gauge), cilinder head temp never went over 120C (250F), and pressure seems to be normal (after watching a dozen vídeos of 2018 mustangs on the track).

Is this normal or there is a problem im not seeing? (faulty oil filter, clumped line, etc?)

Good to hear they have the good rad and the oil to coolant heat exchanger on your car. Manual trans cars that run in our advanced groups with pace are not having reduced power mode issues from engine oil or coolant temp. Many do have issues with the rear diff or trans temp warning but not engine oil.

I would say the main issues is likely the added heat load of the trans effecting the rest of the coolant system since they are all integrated. So you can work on increasing the entire coolant systems capacity in order to bring all the temps down or you can separate the trans heat load from the engine coolant and that should reduce your CHT and Oil temps to essentially what we see on the manual cars. 250*F CHT means the oil in the pan is getting much hotter than 250*F so what ever you do use a quality synthetic oil and consider fresh oil before each track day. Also after a session bring the car into the pits and leave it running with the hood open and allow the coolant to cool the car down prior to shutting the car off. This means you will need a wood block to place under your tires to allow the car to stay in place without the use of the parking brake. I usually see a spike in CHT when I first pull back into the pits and after about 5 min of idling with the hood open the CHT will drop down to the 195-205 range then I turn the car off. Another heat related item of concern is the starter, I put a heat wrap from DEI on all my track cars and so far we have not lost a starter that was wrapped. They are cheap and easy to install and offer a little bit of protection from the heat generated by the exhaust running so close to the starter.

There are a couple of band-aid things you can try to increase the efficiency of the existing components like, reduce your coolant to water ratio, adding water additives to reduce surface tension of the coolant, change to the 170* stat, modify the existing ducting to make sure all the air entering the front openings has to flow through the radiator, add hood vents to allow more air flow through the radiator, change out your grill to an EcoBoost grill because the grill opening is larger, or upgrade the radiator. The last item is a hard one for me to recommend because I know how good the PP rad is and how hard I run my car and I do not have any problems keeping my CHT in the 198-220*F range when running very hard on track. Apple and Oranges because I have a manual, vented hood, modified ducting before the radiator, 170* stat, and no AC Condenser on my track car, but there are a lot of manual trans PP street cars running without the oil temp issues.

We do not have a lot of data for the 2018 A10 combo being run on track so you may be forced to pioneer your way through this issue, I am very surprised that you are having an issue 3 laps into a session. The bad thing is Ford is not going to do anything unless you are having overheating issues in normal street driving, they consider track use to be outside of the design limits for the car and recommend you add additional cooling to deal with the harsher conditions of track duty. The bad thing is changing these systems will also give them an out for warranty repairs should you have an issue not related to track use so proceed with caution if you are concerned about the warranty being in place on your brand new car.

Dave

 

[sigintel]

The 2015 w 6R80 had the stock trans cooler mounted on the radiator on the front side.
Remove your radiator top brackets and you should be able to see the trans cooler if the 10R80 is similar.
I have not started working on my 2018, but I can tell you that just relocating the transcooler to the passenger fender well and adding ducting from the lower grill will make a large difference on the track in cooling the auto trans. You will need to make support brackets or buy the GT350 trans cooler support brackets and modify. Then fab up an airbox or ducting that vents to wheel well.

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