Considering legal action, CSM closed out ticket without replacing motor

[Deleted member 35786]

Just my questions/opinions......


What makes you think that the noise you are experiencing is a significant issue to begin with? What makes you think that the "damage" you saw is serious? Have you experienced any other symptoms such as a loss in power? High oil consumption? etc? If not, then WHY are you demanding an engine replacement? Just because others on this site have received engine replacements for the rattle does not mean that was the right course of action that every Ford dealer will follow. Also, what makes you think that any new engine you might receive will not experience the exact same issue? You have now had a Ford tech tear into your car for no benefit. But yes let’s consider legal action against Ford because they will not preform the repair that you have decided you require…

^^^ This right here sums it up.
You have 5yrs and 60k miles to break that engine. I suggest you get on it if that's what your intentions are. If not, then file a complaint with the AG in Florida with whatever evidence you have. Good luck.
http://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/a510d1364b15502a85256cc9005da68a

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[CEHollier]

You have 5yrs and 60k miles to break that engine. I suggest you get on it. Good luck.

Pretty much.

 

[GT Pony]

@SlaughterOfTheSoul - Has this deslership ever done any motor/short block replacements for ticking/rattling engines? If not, call other Ford dealerships and ask the Service Manager if their shop has. Dealers that are experienced with this issue are more tuned into what's going on and won't tell you the noise is "normal" because they don't know any different.

 

[SlaughterOfTheSoul]

Just my questions/opinions......


What makes you think that the noise you are experiencing is a significant issue to begin with? What makes you think that the "damage" you saw is serious? Have you experienced any other symptoms such as a loss in power? High oil consumption? etc? If not, then WHY are you demanding an engine replacement? Just because others on this site have received engine replacements for the rattle does not mean that was the right course of action that every Ford dealer will follow. Also, what makes you think that any new engine you might receive will not experience the exact same issue? You have now had a Ford tech tear into your car for no benefit. But yes let’s consider legal action against Ford because they will not preform the repair that you have decided you require…

Don't reply if you don't read the thread. No one has done anything to the car. Do you know what a bore scope is?

I am a stress engineer but I am pretty sure you don't have to be one to understand marring on the sleeves is bad.

I appreciate the input everyone. I was surprised when the first email I received from Ford's CSM about the issue was a deferral to arbitration. They just we're not interested in working on the matter at all and it's hard for me to believe I am going to find a dealer that will fight that fight.

 

[CEHollier]

The key here is did the technician acknowledge your findings on cylinders 7 and 8 and was that information forwarded to the Ford CSM. "The CSM basically said "we can't do anything until a dealer acknowledges the problem." Bingo your words. I understand you bore scoped the cylinders and found damage. I read your OP several times and this is what I come away with. That your findings have not been acknowledged by the dealership technician. I found my dealership and technician asking around on our local Cars and Coffee FB page. Stop banging your head against the wall and move on to another dealership. That is what I would personally do. When stating your case clearly and concisely gets you nowhere smile and move along. Then find someone who will help you. If you can avoid arbitration/litigation do it. I have been involved in several lawsuits. I prevailed and won each one. But they were still a PITA. Just my two cents.

 

[zackmd1]

Don't reply if you don't read the thread. No one has done anything to the car. Do you know what a bore scope is?

I am a stress engineer but I am pretty sure you don't have to be one to understand marring on the sleeves is bad.

I appreciate the input everyone. I was surprised when the first email I received from Ford's CSM about the issue was a deferral to arbitration. They just we're not interested in working on the matter at all and it's hard for me to believe I am going to find a dealer that will fight that fight.

I did read the OP and I understand what you might have saw. Not that it matters but I am a Mechanical Engineer and understand the situation....

If you scoped the engine did you take pictures of the damage you saw? If so please post them so we call can see what you are seeing. I have seen claimed bore scope "damage" on this site range from a potential issue to cylinder wall discoloration that was mistaken for damage... Another point, even when I say potential issue I'm not entirely convinced since I could still see hash marks behind the affected area.

The larger picture here is that you have absolutely no confirmation that the noise you are hearing is linked to the "scored" liners. Furthermore you have no data to show if the discoloration/scoring we are seeing is not a normal aspect of spray bore liners. I have seen plenty of 350 5.2 blocks that show the same "scoring". Give me actual data such has piston to bore clearances, close up inspections of the cylinder damage, inspections for out of round cylinders, etc... Then I might be able to agree that this is a serious issue.

As another point, my engine has the BBQ tick and engine rattle.... I have noticed no abnormal behavior such has high oil consumption or low compression as of yet. Even if this is a serious issue, a current replacement engine will not be the fix since it was manufactured in the same plant and is likely identical to your original engine. I myself am waiting for Ford to knowledge the issue in a TSB most likely. Again, if there is an issue, they need time to diagnose and address it on the assembly line before engine swaps will be successful. But if your goal is to just have Ford buy the car back then have at it.

 

[bootlegger]

I did read the OP and I understand what you might have saw. Not that it matters but I am a Mechanical Engineer and understand the situation....

If you scoped the engine did you take pictures of the damage you saw? If so please post them so we call can see what you are seeing. I have seen claimed bore scope "damage" on this site range from a potential issue to cylinder wall discoloration that was mistaken for damage... Another point, even when I say potential issue I'm not entirely convinced since I could still see hash marks behind the affected area.

The larger picture here is that you have absolutely no confirmation that the noise you are hearing is linked to the "scored" liners. Furthermore you have no data to show if the discoloration/scoring we are seeing is not a normal aspect of spray bore liners. I have seen plenty of 350 5.2 blocks that show the same "scoring". Give me actual data such has piston to bore clearances, close up inspections of the cylinder damage, inspections for out of round cylinders, etc... Then I might be able to agree that this is a serious issue.

As another point, my engine has the BBQ tick and engine rattle.... I have noticed no abnormal behavior such has high oil consumption or low compression as of yet. Even if this is a serious issue, a current replacement engine will not be the fix since it was manufactured in the same plant and is likely identical to your original engine. I myself am waiting for Ford to knowledge the issue in a TSB most likely. Again, if there is an issue, they need time to diagnose and address it on the assembly line before engine swaps will be successful. But if your goal is to just have Ford buy the car back then have at it.

Multiple other people have had engines replaced for this same scoring. As an ex engine development engineer, I don’t consider any level of visible scoring acceptable in a low mileage engine. You do realize these engines are supposed to last over 100k miles. During validation, we rate wear based on hours or miles of operation. Wear that may be expected at 100k throws a massive red flag at 5k.

This forum has a real issue with attacking people with issues. I don’t think he has a case for a legal battle yet, but telling him to ignore it is asinine. He needs to go to another dealer that will at least look into the issue.

 

[zackmd1]

Multiple other people have had engines replaced for this same scoring. As an ex engine development engineer, I don’t consider any level of visible scoring acceptable in a low mileage engine. You do realize these engines are supposed to last over 100k miles. During validation, we rate wear based on hours or miles of operation. Wear that may be expected at 100k throws a massive red flag at 5k.

This forum has a real issue with attacking people with issues. I don’t think he has a case for a legal battle yet, but telling him to ignore it is asinine. He needs to go to another dealer that will at least look into the issue.

I am not saying it should be ignored.... I'm saying there is currently no basis for demanding an engine replacement. Just because others have had an engine replaced does not mean everyone with the noise is entitled to one just yet. I have yet to see any quantifiable data as to what is causing this scoring/noise and any repair without first identifying the root cause is going to be a futile effort....

Going to the dealer and having the issue officially documented is likely the best course of action until the root cause is identified. The problem is that we have alot of people guessing as to what or if this is an issue without any quantifiable data which then leads to threads like this where owners are demanding repairs that they think will fix the issue.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

To summarize: The OP is absolutely positive about cylinder damage but dealers won't do a scope because they don't believe there is any (for whatever reason) despite the OP's considerable charm.

Just agree to pay for the dealer if their scoping does not find the scoring. Since the OP KNOWS the cylinders are scored, he won't pay a dime and the dealer will have met Ford's guidelines. OR continue to enjoy the pissing contest.

 

[PJR202]

Go to another dealer and ask to speak with the service manager. Introduce yourself, then before you say anything else tell him/her you need help. People by nature like to help other people. It's the reason people are so eager to give you directions when lost. We love to help and we love to know the answer to things (it's why trivia is so popular).

People by nature do NOT like being told what to do. Just tell them you're in a pickle with another service department (no need to name it in case they know each other, etc), explain the situation and make sure you've communicated to them that you're mostly helpless. Ask them to do the test and offer to pay for it if nothing is found. If you're already at odds with the current dealership, they won't go to any extra effort to help you. If the service department manager at the new dealership is worth a salt, he/she will feel compelled to come to your rescue. Again, don't bash the other dealer. Just show up with your hat in your hand, as they say. Paying for them to check it themselves is a lot cheaper than retaining legal counsel and suing one of the largest corporations in the world.

 

[bootlegger]

Go to another dealer and ask to speak with the service manager. Introduce yourself, then before you say anything else tell him/her you need help. People by nature like to help other people. It's the reason people are so eager to give you directions when lost. We love to help and we love to know the answer to things (it's why trivia is so popular).

People by nature do NOT like being told what to do. Just tell them you're in a pickle with another service department (no need to name it in case they know each other, etc), explain the situation and make sure you've communicated to them that you're mostly helpless. Ask them to do the test and offer to pay for it if nothing is found. If you're already at odds with the current dealership, they won't go to any extra effort to help you. If the service department manager at the new dealership is worth a salt, he/she will feel compelled to come to your rescue. Again, don't bash the other dealer. Just show up with your hat in your hand, as they say. Paying for them to check it themselves is a lot cheaper than retaining legal counsel and suing one of the largest corporations in the world.

Good advice. Play on the psychology.

 

[glenB]

Simple fix, if you're 100% positive its failed and the failure is warrantable, then authorize a teardown.

However, if they tear it down and nothing is found or covered then you are financially responsible.

Problem solved


If this was already suggested and shot down, sorry for the repeat.

 

[IronG]

I don't know about that. I don't think Ford allows for satisfaction of certain issues unless a specific path and complaint is followed. I told the dealerships and techs exactly what the issue was and they just didn't even bother to scope it. It makes it look like they're not willing to or are incapable of representing the issue in such a way to Ford that affords them the way forward with the issue. I see this as a failure of communication just as much on Ford's side as the dealership's. The dealers didn't achieve this disposition on their own. Who would willingly turn down warranty work unless they thought the obligated manufacturer wouldn't have the integrity to follow through?

Every time I take it to a dealer they keep it for a week for no results. What do I have to tell them to get them to check the car out properly?

Maybe find out from the other couple owners that had their engines replaced let you know who the dealer was that worked with them. Maybe you could get your dealer to consult with them and figure out if the issue you are having was the same. If it was, I would think that would get the ball rolling.

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