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Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

martinjlm

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What is interesting is the continual shaming for Mustangs being sold to rental car/fleet companies.

Not sure why this is a negative as it clearly shows the rental car companies know what their customers want.

I am not in the know to know if they are sold for less than what dealerships get them for (doubt it), but Ford still makes a ton of profit from this which is great for all Ford customers.

I guess some may say it dilutes the brand making more on the road, but anyone thinking a vehicle in this price class is unique is kidding themselves.
Just for the record, I do not consider sales to rental fleets to be "shameful". I will say that being on the "business" side of the car business, most (but not all) fleet sales are done at significantly lower margins than private owner sales. Some of that is because of lower option content (government and military vehicle sales) and some of it is due to volume (rental sales). The primary reason the rental car sales issue comes up is that a large part of Mustang's overall sales leadership over Camaro is due to the fact that Chevrolet has intentionally reduced sales of Camaro to rental fleets. As a result, most of Camaro sales are higher content, higher transaction priced sales. This is a specific strategy of not just Camaro, but General Motors in general.

So, when you look at total sales of Mustang and Camaro, if you exclude fleet sales for both of them, the sales to private owners (you, me, and most of the regulars of Mustang 6G and Camaro6) are pretty darn close. Camaro posters probably overplay this. Mustang posters tend to underplay this. To the person considering buying either car it is of little or no consequence.

Rental is not by and of itself a bad thing. It can, however, reduce resale value and then, by formula, residual rates for lease transactions due to high volume of late model high mileage used cars entering the marketplace. That is GM's primary reasoning for limiting sales of most vehicles to rental fleets. Attempting to maintain higher residual rates in order to offer better lease deals.
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martinjlm

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That's what I wrote :)

(Well, I actually wrote very specifically $40,345)




I'm not sure how you configure two cars with like equipment, both priced at $40K, but are "not seeing how they're priced similarly" ... ?




Not sure if this was directed at me, because I said nothing like this - in fact, I made a point about documenting the specific model years I used for pricing, the latter retrieved right off the manufacturer's websites (the latest MY available to price/configure online).


So in summary, the takeaway from our exchanges:
  • Current pricing, with roughly equipment parity, puts a GT and SS in the same general price vicinity
  • The 1LE is better on track , but is about $4.6K more than a GT PP (current MYs), YMMV as to whether the price difference means anything ...
  • Rev 1 (15-17) S550 PP cars are cheaper
  • $40K == $40K
  • Math is fun :)
  • This coffee is delicious*




* It's a blend of Sumatran & Ethiopia, Viennese roast, whole bean, fresh ground, run through a French press.
I'm sorry….you're gonna have to prove that last one.
 

bluebeastsrt

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I agree with you 100%. For most all years of the Mustang camaro rivalry the camaro has been faster and a better performer but Mustang has always with few exceptions has out sold camaro. Witness 54 yeas continuous production and 10 million Mustangs.
It goes back and forth. The 80s had the foxes on top. The 90s the LS cars were king of the heap. Chevy guys dont like to talk about the 2000s. This decade. Chevy has held a perormance advantage. With a small exception of the S197 coyotes. Ford hadn't helped themselves lately. With the GT500 lagging years behind the Hellcat & ZL1. Or the PP2. A car thats dressed like a track car. But not a track car. Fords words. Not mine.
 

ALUSA

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Normally they do Head2Heads. That should show the real comparison. I agree with the logical people here that both cars should have been tested the same day. Motortrend used a previous data for the camaro which can't be used for comparison unless the difference between the two cars were significantly higher.
That's what I wrote :)

(Well, I actually wrote very specifically $40,345)




I'm not sure how you configure two cars with like equipment, both priced at $40K, but are "not seeing how they're priced similarly" ... ?




Not sure if this was directed at me, because I said nothing like this - in fact, I made a point about documenting the specific model years I used for pricing, the latter retrieved right off the manufacturer's websites (the latest MY available to price/configure online).


So in summary, the takeaway from our exchanges:
  • Current pricing, with roughly equipment parity, puts a GT and SS in the same general price vicinity
  • The 1LE is better on track , but is about $4.6K more than a GT PP (current MYs), YMMV as to whether the price difference means anything ...
  • Rev 1 (15-17) S550 PP cars are cheaper
  • $40K == $40K
  • Math is fun :)
  • This coffee is delicious*




* It's a blend of Sumatran & Ethiopia, Viennese roast, whole bean, fresh ground, run through a French press.
I don't know why you guys looking into configurators and msrp prices. Lets talk about the real values. Currently the best deal seems to be a base 18 GT for $27,833 and a 1SS 1LE for $35,686. Brand new. Same day in your garage. Do it. Here are the links below;

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/739828667/overview/
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/722004597/overview/
 

EcoVert

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Ford hadn't helped themselves lately. With the GT500 lagging years behind the Hellcat & ZL1. Or the PP2. A car thats dressed like a track car. But not a track car. Fords words. Not mine.
Very true Ford has shot themselves in the foot with the way they've handled the GT500. Hackett's rein at Ford has caused a lot of problems. There's so much vacillation and indecision it seems to have paralyzed the performance operations at Ford. I sense people trying to stay under the radar so they don't loose their jobs.
 

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MaskedRacerX

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I'm sorry….you're gonna have to prove that last one.

Gotcha. I'll need a mailing address and some sort of liquid container with a battery powered heating system ...

:D

I don't know why you guys looking into configurators and msrp prices. Lets talk about the real values. Currently the best deal seems to be a base 18 GT for $27,833 and a 1SS 1LE for $35,686. Brand new. Same day in your garage. Do it.
That was just the context of what I was responding to, sure, go out, get the best deal! Heck, my '16 GTPP convertible, loaded, in Oct '15 was just a touch under $50K, scored it for ~$42K :D
 

Nabush

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Last win was 8 years ago in 2010 according to wiki...I'm not suggesting he isn't a great driver. But he's not an end all be all source. There are tens of thousands of professional drivers across the world and he's far from the top of them. Different drivers will favor different chassis and setups. Hard to say when there's a 0.7% difference in lap time that one car truly is better performing than another. Like I said, throw in a different driver and the tables may very well turn on the opposite direction. Now if we had 10 different professional drivers test both cars on the same day, and the 1LE came out on top the majority of the time, I'd say it's truly a slightly faster car, but that will never happen, so in reality it's a driver's race between the two cars.

Like I said, the Eagle F1 Supercar 3 tires on the SS are actually designed SPECIFICALLY for the SS. It's a specialty tire for one car from a manufacturer that has attributes tuned just for that car and suspension. You cannot get a better tire off the shelf. Changing tires will upset the car's balance and attributes that make it so great.

Often high end OE's do that to squeeze out handling attributes for their chassis or even tweak out suspension quirks. It's not an off the shelf tire you can buy in 30 different sizes. They don't make the Eagle F1 Supercar 3 in a size that will fit the PP2 GT wheels. It was made to GM's spec. specifically and ONLY for the SS 1LE. The 1LE may actually handle worse with an off the shelf tire even if it's "stickier". You can't assume it will actually produce better times. Outright grip is only a small part of the equation and too grippy of a tire can have negative attributes that make a car twitchy or even unpredictable.

We're all keyboard warriors anyway, so I suppose it doesn't matter. But it's fun to debate some times. I think the magic of the 1LE is in it's extreme level of suspension tuning down to matching custom tires just for it's chassis. It's quite impressive that Ford managed to come within a fraction of a percent on track time at an identical price without having to use custom tuned tires made just for their car. I'm betting the gap would be closed if they went that route. The real question is, could they do it without increasing the price?

You can't ignore that fact. Tires are 75% of handling and these two cars are so darn close it's a drivers race. Yes, with this driver, on this track the 1LE won. But what if we raced them at a larger track where the 3rd gen's 5.0 can stretch it's legs more? Is the PP2 GT a faster car then? WeatherTech Raceway Laguna Seca is a fairly technical track unlike Willow Springs.

Faster is relative. I'd bet the difference would disappear at a higher speed track where the PP2 can leverage it's higher average power advantage over the SS. So is the 1LE really faster? On some tracks it is, on others it's likely not. In a 1 mile drag race a regular PP GT beat a 2SS by 4 car lengths 30 times in a row...that's well over 0.5 seconds difference. You talking seconds.

Here's some more interesting notes and flaws in the test:
1. your bench-marking a brand new car that's not broken in against a car with thousands of miles on it. 2017 vs. 2018.
2. The driver has obviously had much more seat time in the 1LE having driven it numerous times before.
3. The tires on the 1LE are custom variants tuned specifically for that car to enhance it's handling beyond what a typical off the shelf generic tire can produce
4. Different drivers are going to favor different chassis and handling attributes based on their driving habits / characteristics / style

So we have two cars who ran on the same day and they are so close their time difference is 0.65 seconds which is a 0.7% difference with all of those variables above and we're saying it's a definitive "yup, this car is slower" as opposed to "wow, those two cars are so close it's a drivers race and they are on par".
Just so you know, the SS 1LE lapped Willow Spring in 1min28.29s, same time as the GT350R....
 

millhouse

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Just so you know, the SS 1LE lapped Willow Spring in 1min28.29s, same time as the GT350R....
We've been down this road before. Stop spewing different day lap numbers and try to use them to somehow make the 1LE look better than it is. The GT350R and 1LE were lapped on the same track on the same day, and the R was 1.66 seconds faster than the 1LE (laguna seca).

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/mclaren/570/2016/2016-motor-trend-best-drivers-car/

As for the GT350 vs 1LE, there is no track data to say how equal the two are.
 

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ALUSA

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Just admit the truth
He won’t! If they test it the same day the car becomes a ringer. Even if the car isn’t a ringer then the test was done on different hours minutes and seconds of the day so the weather data is not valid. Even if the weather data is the same then the track surface temperature was not the same.

Did anyone check the tire pressures on both cars? What was the fuel level on both? Did both cars have same weight of fuel? Lets put all that in the side, the Driver was not pushing the mustang. Put the Driver on a lie detector but he may be a spy and knows how to trick the device. List goes on. You gotta accept and move on.
 

Hack

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Just so you know, the SS 1LE lapped Willow Spring in 1min28.29s, same time as the GT350R....
Just so you know, the SS 1LE lapped Laguna Seca in 1:37.78, over 1.5 seconds slower than the GT350R.
 

millhouse

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Just so you know, the SS 1LE lapped Laguna Seca in 1:37.78, over 1.5 seconds slower than the GT350R.
You're comparing same day, same driver, same track time. Everyone knows that's not allowed. We need to be comparing times that make the camaro look better, not worse. :crazy:
 

FastCarFanBoy

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Just so you know, the SS 1LE lapped Willow Spring in 1min28.29s, same time as the GT350R....
Just so you know, The SS 1LE lapped VIR 3 seconds slower than the 350R and I have been told that's equal to 4000 years of chassis design.
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