Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

[gixxersixxerman]

Its not good enough for these Chevy guys when I say. Camaro handles better than a Mustang. Which I freely admit. I could give two fucks. Im a straight line guy. And I don’t give a shit about stock times. Because nothing I’ve ever owned in my life has stayed stock! But You literally have to worship to the Gods of GM or they lose their minds. I like the power of the Camaro. I like the exterior styling of the Camaro. I like the way the Camaro handles! I’ve owned several Camaros in my lifetime. But I say, I don’t like the interior or the bad visibility of the 6th gen. Which is my fuckin opinion! They shit the bed! Visibility is fine adjust your mirrors and deal with it they say. Then they act like they have never heard anyone say anything about the visibility. You Bring up sales. To make a point that the Camaro isn’t perfect. Because if it was as perfect as they think it is. It would be the best selling sports car in the segment. But for some reason. They don’t wanna understand that logic. And then you gotta hear about fleet sales. And The magical ATP. There is 5 new Camaro guys a day on this sight. It’s like they run out. Buy a Camaro. And then sign up to every Mustang forum they can find. Start shit. Then run back and say.....those Mustang guys are assholes. Or they’re fanbois. Ok so I’m a Mustang fanboi? Am I somehow in the wrong place? Or are you in the wrong place. Cause I’m pretty sure. They have a spot for Camaro fanbois. I highly doubt that spot is called a Mustang forum. I think I’ll go to every Camar forum I can find. And remind them. That the 18 Mustang has tested to be faster than a current 6th gen Camaro. Magazines say so. Wonder how that will go over?

Lol, so much a camaro guy that the 2018 GT is in my garage. Great, you car about how fast you car goes in a straight line congrats, a base GT with a A10 would fulfill your wet dreams, some care about the car actually turning. So don’t. The visibility issue is there, I don’t think anyone really argues with it, but it’s not as bad as you and others make it out. Off the top of my head, FRS/BRZ/86, 370z, Caymen, any exotic all have worse visibility then a Camaro, but people are not crying over them.. again. It is worse then a GT, but you make it seem like your camaro years were the luckiest of your life. This is a mustang forum, and should be biased towards the mustang. But to see the people come out with the dumbest arguments on why the 1LE isn’t a better car around a track, not an opinion a fact... which is what this thread is about, not straight line shit you keep wanting to argue about, is ridiculous. The fact is the 1LE makes a better track car, that’s it. The mustang is faster in a straight line, better as a DD, but for a track rat.. the 1LE is a better weapon. That’s what I’m saying and others also, then price, visibility, sales always gets brought up.

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[bluebeastsrt]

Lol, so much a camaro guy that the 2018 GT is in my garage. Great, you car about how fast you car goes in a straight line congrats, a base GT with a A10 would fulfill your wet dreams, some care about the car actually turning. So don’t. The visibility issue is there, I don’t think anyone really argues with it, but it’s not as bad as you and others make it out. Off the top of my head, FRS/BRZ/86, 370z, Caymen, any exotic all have worse visibility then a Camaro, but people are not crying over them.. again. It is worse then a GT, but you make it seem like your camaro years were the luckiest of your life. This is a mustang forum, and should be biased towards the mustang. But to see the people come out with the dumbest arguments on why the 1LE isn’t a better car around a track, not an opinion a fact... which is what this thread is about, not straight line shit you keep wanting to argue about, is ridiculous. The fact is the 1LE makes a better track car, that’s it. The mustang is faster in a straight line, better as a DD, but for a track rat.. the 1LE is a better weapon. That’s what I’m saying and others also, then price, visibility, sales always gets brought up.

Who the fuck is arguing with you????? I still haven’t seen a single reply. That said a PP2 is a better track day toy then a 1Le. Produce this post for me. so I can at least see what you keep rambling on about! I know I damn sure never said any such thing. If your gonna keep quoting me. Show me where I said a PP2 would lose to a 1Le on a track.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Who the fuck is arguing with you????? I still haven’t seen a single reply. That said a PP2 is a better track day toy then a 1Le. Produce this post for me. so I can at least see what you keep rambling on about! I know I damn sure never said any such thing. If your gonna keep quoting me. Show me where I said a PP2 would lose to a 1Le on a track.

I mean since you asked

You say it’s a better car. That’s your OPINION. So I guess since I don’t agree with you. That makes you a Camaro fan boy??? Right?

It’s not an opinion that the 1LE is a better track car. That’s what this thread is about, and then after me and some others claimed it was, everything from tires to sales to visibility was once again thrown up on why the mustang is better.. which I agree with for a DD, just not a track toy

 

[bluebeastsrt]

I mean since you asked



It’s not an opinion that the 1LE is a better track car. That’s what this thread is about, and then after me and some others claimed it was, everything from tires to sales to visibility was once again thrown up on why the mustang is better.. which I agree with for a DD, just not a track toy

I’m squinting my eyes real hard........ Nope not seeing where I said anything about A PP2 being a better track day weapon in what you just quoted. Also not seeing where I claimed the PP2 would put up a better lap time. I still think the PP2 Mustang is a better car than the 1Le. Does that opinion make me a fanboi for liking what I like? Your getting your arguement fucked up. Better car. And faster car around a road course. Aren’t the same to me. I can make any car as fast as I want. But I can’t change it’s design. Or it’s interior. Or it’s lousy sight lines.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

Those supercar 3 tires wear damn near as fast as the SC2 tires and are apparently damn near as good on the track. Let’s stop pretending that they are a high mileage street oriented tire.

No, they don't wear nearly as fast as SC2. I just got a new set put on today. Last set had 16k miles and 4 track days on them. Probably could have got another 3k street miles out of them but got a huge screw through the right rear which was a good excuse just to get new ones. $1100 for all 4. That is a deal.

SC2 will not last that long. They are a stickier tire and are pretty much slicks after a couple of track outings. They are great tires but dang are they expensive and wear quickly. I wouldn't be comfortable running them in much rain. Probably looking around 1800-2000 for a set in Mustang PP2 sizes I am guessing.

The G3 is a better combo daily/track tire IMO. SC2 is a better track tire.

 

[thehunterooo]

I mean since you asked



It’s not an opinion that the 1LE is a better track car. That’s what this thread is about, and then after me and some others claimed it was, everything from tires to sales to visibility was once again thrown up on why the mustang is better.. which I agree with for a DD, just not a track toy

So then the thread can be closed? I already stated the results back on the first page.

 

[millhouse]

Lol, the quote, he posted.. from Johnny... was taken from the 2018 best drivers car. I don’t know how else to tell it to you, both cars were tested on the same day. He is not talking about the motortend article that you keep referring to. He is talking about Johnny ig account at the actual test. He posted the 1LE time, that was 1 tenth of a second faster then it did 2 years ago. I’m not sure why that’s hard for you to understand.. but you guys will argue and argue and argue.. good luck to you.. I’m moving on from the conversation.

My favorite type of camaro fanboy, illiterate and ignorant.

I hate to break it to you fanboy, but you're wrong. Let's look at the article one more time in bold (because you obviously didn't read the article).

"Although we did not have both cars at the same time to do it properly, they were, in fact, tested in the same locations and by the same drivers. Because both were included in our annual Best Driver's Car Tests (2016 and 2018), we have pages and pages of detailed staff notes on both, from their respective test days, and from the road.?

Not enough for ya? Let's break down the numbers they are using for the comparison...and note they are using a 2017 1LE for these test numbers. What year is it again?

2016 Best drivers car(with 2017 1LE) Article
0-60 MPH 4.0 sec
QUARTER MILE 12.4 sec @ 114.2 mph
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 94 ft
0-100-0 MPH 13.1 sec
LATERAL ACCELERATION 1.09 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 23.3 sec @ 0.86 g (avg)
2.2-MI ROAD COURSE LAP 97.77 sec
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/mclaren/570/2016/2016-motor-trend-best-drivers-car/

2018 GTPP2 VS 2017 Camaro 1LE comparison Article
0-60 MPH 4.0 sec
QUARTER MILE 12.4 sec @ 114.2 mph
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 94 ft
0-100-0 MPH 13.1 sec
LATERAL ACCELERATION 1.09 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 23.3 sec @ 0.86 g (avg)
2.2-MI ROAD COURSE LAP 97.77 sec
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...t-performance-pack-level-2-first-test-review/

Holy shit, they are identical! How in the world does that happen?

So lets break this down. They say right up front that these two cars weren't available to test on the same day. They say they are using data for the mustang from the 2018 best drivers car and the camaro from the 2016 best drivers car. They use data for a 2017 1LE when they are no longer made. All of the data they post for the 1LE is identical between the GTPP2 comparison and the 2016 best driver car.

How you still think (and are actually attempting to form a debate with me) why these were run on the same day is beyond me.

No, they don't wear nearly as fast as SC2. I just got a new set put on today. Last set had 16k miles and 4 track days on them. Probably could have got another 3k street miles out of them but got a huge screw through the right rear which was a good excuse just to get new ones. $1100 for all 4. That is a deal.

SC2 will not last that long. They are a stickier tire and are pretty much slicks after a couple of track outings. They are great tires but dang are they expensive and wear quickly. I wouldn't be comfortable running them in much rain. Probably looking around 1800-2000 for a set in Mustang PP2 sizes I am guessing.

The G3 is a better combo daily/track tire IMO. SC2 is a better track tire.

People have run SC2 tires well into the 10-20k mile range. Many have gotten 5-10k miles out of the G3. Don't beleive me? Read the reviews for both.

https://www.tirerack.com/survey/Sur...upercar+3&fromTireDetail=true&tirePageLocQty=

https://www.tirerack.com/survey/Sur...ort+Cup+2&fromTireDetail=true&tirePageLocQty=

I'm not saying the the G3 is a better track tire, but rather these two are much closer than most realize. Same tread depth, nearly same wear rating, nearly same weight. The main difference is how these two are marketed.

As for the rain, neither one are nearly as good as the PS4 tires in the rain...which is par for the course when you're starting with 7/32 of total tread depth.

 

[Laststandard]

Ford doesn't really support "car guys" as a company. Their sister company, Ford Performance does. Too bad we'll never see how a regular 2015-2017 GT quipped with Ford Performance Track Handling Pack and Power Pack 3 stacks up against a 1LE or how a GT350R with all of the Ford Performance chassis, suspension and cooling upgrades would improve further....

I just watched the replay of the Road America 120 last night. It was stacked with Mustangs and not a single Camaro in sight. I wish GM put as much effort into the GT4 class as they do with the 'vette. Seems weird that they go to all the effort of making a killer track car and don't have any representation in a big race series.

 

[martinjlm]

I have no problem with the 1LE being claimed a better track car.



You’re not getting it. It’s possible that the PP2 lost by MORE than what they are saying. What I’m telling you is the comparison is bullshit. They are using their memory to compare these cars handling characteristics and using times from different months which could easily be a 3 second delta. It’s lazy clickbait journalism.

What I’m also telling you is that it’s quite possible that the SS1LE would go SLOWER on SC2 tires. By all accounts, those supercar 3 tires are truly amazing.



The ZL1 has 124 more horsepower and 221 lb feet of torque more than the GT350. Let’s put this in comparison that you can understand. The SS camaro has 120 more horsepower and 171 more lb ft of torque than the V6 camaro. In other words, the ZL1 has nearly the same horsepower advantage over the GT350 that the SS has over the V6 camaro, and (the ZL1) it has an even larger torque advantage.

But yeah, what am I thinking….it’s totally fine to compare the SS camaro against the V6 camaro for ¼ mile and track performance.

The thing is, Ford has historical had a car that competes with the ZL1, they just don't offer one for the S550 (yet).

What MIGHT be interesting is comparing a Camaro SS to a Camaro LT 1LE....basically, a V6 with SS suspension and SS 1LE cooling and brakes. The V6 has an hp deficit, but a balance and braking advantage. Depending on the track layout, it could be really close. Quarter mile? Nope.

 

[EcoVert]

Its not good enough for these Chevy guys when I say. Camaro handles better than a Mustang. Which I freely admit. I could give two fucks. Im a straight line guy. And I don’t give a shit about stock times. Because nothing I’ve ever owned in my life has stayed stock! But You literally have to worship to the Gods of GM or they lose their minds. I like the power of the Camaro. I like the exterior styling of the Camaro. I like the way the Camaro handles! I’ve owned several Camaros in my lifetime. But I say, I don’t like the interior or the bad visibility of the 6th gen. Which is my fuckin opinion! They shit the bed! Visibility is fine adjust your mirrors and deal with it they say. Then they act like they have never heard anyone say anything about the visibility. You Bring up sales. To make a point that the Camaro isn’t perfect. Because if it was as perfect as they think it is. It would be the best selling sports car in the segment. But for some reason. They don’t wanna understand that logic. And then you gotta hear about fleet sales. And The magical ATP. There is 5 new Camaro guys a day on this sight. It’s like they run out. Buy a Camaro. And then sign up to every Mustang forum they can find. Start shit. Then run back and say.....those Mustang guys are assholes. Or they’re fanbois. Ok so I’m a Mustang fanboi? Am I somehow in the wrong place? Or are you in the wrong place? Cause I’m pretty sure. They have a spot for Camaro fanbois. I highly doubt that spot is called a Mustang forum. I think I’ll go to every Camaro forum I can find. And remind them. That the 18 Mustang has tested to be faster than a current 6th gen Camaro in the 1/4mile. Magazines say so. Wonder how that will go over?

I agree with you 100%. For most all years of the Mustang camaro rivalry the camaro has been faster and a better performer but Mustang has always with few exceptions has out sold camaro. Witness 54 yeas continuous production and 10 million Mustangs.

 

[martinjlm]

The whole reason why GM can build those camaros are because they share the same engine as the corvettes. It lowers the R&D and manufacturing costs. Ford doesn't have a corvette equivalent to transfer the same engine to a heavier platform. What Ford has is different mustang variants. Ford could have made the GT500 a low 3300 lbs car and then transfer the engine to a regular mustang gt but it would be really tough for a car with a back seat. Besides, then what are they going to do with the GT350?

Actually both companies benefit from having full-sized trucks using the same basic engine in high volumes. The development work to produce the performance variants is negligible compared to the development costs of the higher volume truck engines. Lump Dodge / Ram in that same group. For the most part, the performance development piggy-backs off of and nibbles around the edges of truck development. The volume of V8s for Corvette is not that high to make a difference. In fact, having Camaro using the same V8s probably helps Corvette cost more than it helps Camaro playing off of Corvette volume.

 

[millhouse]

What MIGHT be interesting is comparing a Camaro SS to a Camaro LT 1LE....basically, a V6 with SS suspension and SS 1LE cooling and brakes. The V6 has an hp deficit, but a balance and braking advantage. Depending on the track layout, it could be really close. Quarter mile? Nope.

On a smaller track, I'd venture to say it could be very close! It would be an interesting comparison no doubt!

 

[Timeless]

What is interesting is the continual shaming for Mustangs being sold to rental car/fleet companies.

Not sure why this is a negative as it clearly shows the rental car companies know what their customers want.

I am not in the know to know if they are sold for less than what dealerships get them for (doubt it), but Ford still makes a ton of profit from this which is great for all Ford customers.

I guess some may say it dilutes the brand making more on the road, but anyone thinking a vehicle in this price class is unique is kidding themselves.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

Base price is is 35k...add in performance package only and your at 40k.

That's what I wrote

(Well, I actually wrote very specifically $40,345)

Base 1SS price is 38k (technically $37,900), add in Performance Enthusiast package ($2,500) and your at 40k....I'm not seeing how the SS is priced similarly.

I'm not sure how you configure two cars with like equipment, both priced at $40K, but are "not seeing how they're priced similarly" ... ?

I guess I'm confused as to how you can say the 2015-2017 MSRP's are much higher when I have the literal window sticker in my filing cabinet....

Not sure if this was directed at me, because I said nothing like this - in fact, I made a point about documenting the specific model years I used for pricing, the latter retrieved right off the manufacturer's websites (the latest MY available to price/configure online).


So in summary, the takeaway from our exchanges:

• Current pricing, with roughly equipment parity, puts a GT and SS in the same general price vicinity
• The 1LE is better on track , but is about $4.6K more than a GT PP (current MYs), YMMV as to whether the price difference means anything ...
• Rev 1 (15-17) S550 PP cars are cheaper
• $40K == $40K
• Math is fun
• This coffee is delicious*

* It's a blend of Sumatran & Ethiopia, Viennese roast, whole bean, fresh ground, run through a French press.

 

[thehunterooo]

What is interesting is the continual shaming for Mustangs being sold to rental car/fleet companies.

Not sure why this is a negative as it clearly shows the rental car companies know what their customers want.

I am not in the know to know if they are sold for less than what dealerships get them for (doubt it), but Ford still makes a ton of profit from this which is great for all Ford customers.

I guess some may say it dilutes the brand making more on the road, but anyone thinking a vehicle in this price class is unique is kidding themselves.

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