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Xavierviana

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So Overall, 5w30 will be the best option for this Engine with regard to protecting the engine, let say increasing the life (time) of this engine?

Also do you think 5w30 would reduce engine noise in comparsion with 5w20?
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engineermike

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My understanding is that 5w50 is the best for protecting the engine. Short of that, I believe that any a3/b4 oil would be better than not. No 5w20 and few 5w30's meet the a3/b4 requirements for protection.
 

GT Pony

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So Overall, 5w30 will be the best option for this Engine with regard to protecting the engine, let say increasing the life (time) of this engine?

Also do you think 5w30 would reduce engine noise in comparsion with 5w20?
The level of engine protection as a function of only oil viscosity really depends on what your expected maximun oil tempetature is going to be. Higher viscosity oil doesn't thin down as much when the oil temperature increases. This is why car manufacturers spec higher viscosity oil for track use, because they know oil temperature is going to get higher and thin down more than normal street driving. Get the oil too hot and too thin from heat and the minimum oil film thickness can decrease to the point of metal-to-metal contact (wear).

The Coyote has a decent oil cooler, so that helps keep the oil temperature down around 200~210 F which is the middle of the "green zone" on the oil temp gauge.

If you're just doing 99% normal mellow street driving then a good 5W-20 will work fine. But running a 5W-30 will give added safety margin to protect the engine if it's pushed hard for any extended time (ie, lots of high speed episodes in "Mexico").

I believe the 2018 owner's manual now specs 5W-30 for track use. The 2015~2017 owner's manual doesn't even address track use, which is strange. But for the Coyote in Australia, Ford specs 5W-30 all the time, probably because of the hot climate. Plus CAFE rules don't apply in Australia. Running 5W-30 on the street isn't going to hurt anything - if it would, Ford would never spec it in the Coyote for Australia.
 
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Ebm

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Run 5w-20 or 5w-30, your choice. If you do any kind of spirited driving in a climate as hot as yours, get the 5w-30 and be done with it.

The Roadrunner(It's pretty much a Coyote) Boss Stangs and Track Pack Stangs all came with 5w-50 from the factory. These Coyote motors are the same motors found in 2011+ GTs. If Ford filled them with 5w-50 based on people buying a Boss or Track Pack car for track use, you are fine running a 5w-30 year round.
 

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Run 5w-20 or 5w-30, your choice. If you do any kind of spirited driving in a climate as hot as yours, get the 5w-30 and be done with it.

The Roadrunner(It's pretty much a Coyote) Boss Stangs and Track Pack Stangs all came with 5w-50 from the factory. These Coyote motors are the same motors found in 2011+ GTs. If Ford filled them with 5w-50 based on people buying a Boss or Track Pack car for track use, you are fine running a 5w-30 year round.
@Ebm

^ Listen to this guy, he is right. Even with the new 2018 GT's having plasma arc cylinder liners, you can go 5w-50 or 5w-20 and everything in-between depending on your driving style and average temps of your location.
 

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jbird60

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I saw a few people making comparisons between the Boss 302 engine and the S550 Coyote... I'd be cautious in saying that they are identical because in some important respects, they aren't.

Items like the hydraulic lash adjusters and the cam phasers are designed to run on the oil specified on your oil cap. These often get overlooked when people consider switching oils for track use. The Boss 302 engine has a minimal CAFE hit on the company due to low production volume, so heavier weight oil can be afforded in that regard whereas S550 Coyote engines are made in huge numbers and thus require the lower weight oil. Attempting to run an S550 Coyote on heavier oil based on the assumption that its the same as the Boss engine can lead to upper end problems with previously-mentioned components.

Suggestion: as the first reply said, a fully-synthetic 5w20 or 5w30 should be adequate, even in the relatively high ambient heat and with hard driving (these cars get wrung out in Arizona's summer heat as part of the development cycle, so hopefully that's a bit of a relief). If tracking your car, a 40-weight is appropriate, but should only be used for the on-track driving portion if at all possible.
 
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engineermike

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Is anyone concerned about the HIGH viscosity of the 5W20 damaging the lash adjusters and phasers when the oil temp is 160 deg F?
 

Ebm

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I saw a few people making comparisons between the Boss 302 engine and the S550 Coyote... I'd be cautious in saying that they are identical because in some important respects, they aren't.

Items like the hydraulic lash adjusters and the cam phasers are designed to run on the oil specified on your oil cap. These often get overlooked when people consider switching oils for track use. The Boss 302 engine has a minimal CAFE hit on the company due to low production volume, so heavier weight oil can be afforded in that regard whereas S550 Coyote engines are made in huge numbers and thus require the lower weight oil. Attempting to run an S550 Coyote on heavier oil based on the assumption that its the same as the Boss engine can lead to upper end problems with previously-mentioned components.

Suggestion: as the first reply said, a fully-synthetic 5w20 or 5w30 should be adequate, even in the relatively high ambient heat and with hard driving (these cars get wrung out in Arizona's summer heat as part of the development cycle, so hopefully that's a bit of a relief). If tracking your car, a 40-weight is appropriate, but should only be used for the on-track driving portion only if at all possible.
It wasn't just the Boss 302 that had 5W-50. The regular GT with the Coyote that had the track package on it also came with 5W-50. What do you have to say about that?

Also, I agree with you. I think 5W-20 or 5W-30 should be used. Anything over 5W-30 is just for the track, not street use.
 

engineermike

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The big oil companies will always recommend using factory spec oil, so its pretty telling when Mobil1 says "For road and track use, consider Mobil 1™ motor oils in 15W-50 or FS 0W-40 viscosities." Both of those meet ACEA A3/B3, which is what I was referring to earlier. I use the Penzzoil equivalent to the FS 0W40 to get the GTL base oil.
 

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It wasn't just the Boss 302 that had 5W-50. The regular GT with the Coyote that had the track package on it also came with 5W-50. What do you have to say about that?


Also, I agree with you. I think 5W-20 or 5W-30 should be used. Anything over 5W-30 is just for the track, not street use.
I neglected to mention the regular GT track pack, so thank you for pointing that out. The same motivation as the Boss 302 with respect to CAFE would apply. Because the company is judged as a fleet, lower-volume vehicles (of which that trim level of the GT would counted as) are afforded the opportunity to shift the balance more towards performance at the cost of fuel economy.


Is anyone concerned about the HIGH viscosity of the 5W20 damaging the lash adjusters and phasers when the oil temp is 160 deg F?
Not really, because that temperature and lower ranges are only experienced during warmup (i.e. they're very temporary compared to the lifespan of the engine). The engine itself is designed to run with oil temperatures more in the 185 to 205 F range.
 

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engineermike

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I neglected to mention the regular GT track pack, so thank you for pointing that out. The same motivation as the Boss 302 with respect to CAFE would apply. Because the company is judged as a fleet, lower-volume vehicles (of which that trim level of the GT would counted as) are afforded the opportunity to shift the balance more towards performance at the cost of fuel economy.
I don’t think any of us disagree with the motivation you cite here.

Not really, because that temperature and lower ranges are only experienced during warmup (i.e. they're very temporary compared to the lifespan of the engine). The engine itself is designed to run with oil temperatures more in the 185 to 205 F range.
Ok, but a 0w20 could be upwards of 400 cst viscosity at cold start. A 5w50 might be 17 cst when hot, while a 5w40 is 13, a 5w30 is 10, and a 5w20 is 9. My point is that if 17 is bad and could shorten the life of the engine, wouldn’t a viscosity 20 times higher be 20 times worse and very concerning? I think people get too hung up on the hot viscosity number, not realizing the temp affects the viscosity far more than the sae weight rating.
 

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I don’t think any of us disagree with the motivation you cite here.



Ok, but a 0w20 could be upwards of 400 cst viscosity at cold start. A 5w50 might be 17 cst when hot, while a 5w40 is 13, a 5w30 is 10, and a 5w20 is 9. My point is that if 17 is bad and could shorten the life of the engine, wouldn’t a viscosity 20 times higher be 20 times worse and very concerning? I think people get too hung up on the hot viscosity number, not realizing the temp affects the viscosity far more than the sae weight rating.
Based on your numbers, the 50-weight is still almost double the kinematic viscosity of the 20-weight, so I don't think that can be ignored, especially over the the course of 100,000 miles (if we're using Ford's powertrain warranty metrics as a the basis by which the engine's expected lifespan is determined). Components like cam phasers, their complementary solenoid valves for introducing and draining oil into the phaser cavities, and lash adjusters are very sensitive to at-temp lubricant viscosity due to their small sizes and very narrow oil passages, so running heavy weight oils long-term can diminish those components' expected lifespan.

To be honest, there's probably more to the argument here as to why this oil weight decision was made, but it's beyond my scope of knowledge. Usually when I have questions like this (and I have had them pretty often), I take them to the Coyote systems guys. They sit a couple floors above me :)
 

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Based on your numbers, the 50-weight is still almost double the kinematic viscosity of the 20-weight...
And again, orders of magnitude less viscous than cold 5w20 that no one seems to worry about at all.

.... Components like cam phasers, their complementary solenoid valves for introducing and draining oil into the phaser cavities, and lash adjusters are very sensitive to at-temp lubricant viscosity due to their small sizes and very narrow oil passages, so running heavy weight oils long-term can diminish those components' expected lifespan.
And again, all of these components go through the same warm up cycle with oil in the 400+ cst range every time the engine started, so I don’t think 17 cst is going to hurt them. Not to mention, higher viscosities offer a larger film thickness under heavier loads and higher temps, which results in less wear.

I don’t take these things lightly. I’ve researched this more than anyone should. Some of the most telling things are the track pack running 5w50, the 2018 manual calling for 5w30 for track use, both roush and Whipple calling for 5w50 when supercharged, and the widely circulated quotes from ford engineers Scott Whitehead and Mike Riley saying to avoid the 5w20.

To be honest, there's probably more to the argument here as to why this oil weight decision was made, but it's beyond my scope of knowledge....
You hit the nail on the head earlier. It’s fuel efficiency only that is driving the industry to lower viscosities. They are pushing to lower viscosities and testing to see if the engines can still meet the oem lifespan goal. Some are modifying the engine designs to retain some lifespan with lower viscosity. E.g. modify the engine to deal with less oil film thickness. I think this is craziness. In most cases it will be just fine because most engines rarely exceed 30% load. But enthusiasts generally are harder on equipment than the average joe.

I would rather them choose the oil to maximize engine life and sacrifice the tiny fuel economy benefit. Same with the oil formulations....up until about api SL the spec was making the oils cleaner and protect better with every revision. After that they started worrying more about fuel economy and cat converter fouling. I’d rather protect the engine than the cat converter.
 
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GT Pony

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This is what @engineermike is getting at. This example is using the KV100 (Kinematic Viscosity at 100 C) and KV40 (Kinematic Viscosity at 40 C) values off of Mobil's website for their Mobil 1 Full Synthetic. The viscosity vs temperature calculator can be found here: https://www.widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

First graph shows the viscosity curves through a large temperature range to get the overall perspective. The second graph blows up the temperature range between 50 to 150 C (122 to 302 F). See the horizontal lines I've drawn through the curves.

15W-50 at 100 C (212 F) is the same viscosity as:
  • 5W-20 at 70 C (158 F) - Temp delta = 54 F
  • 5W-30 at 78 C (172 F) - Temp delta = 40 F
5W-20 at 100 C (212 F) is the same viscosity as:
  • 5W-30 at 110 C (230 F) - Temp delta = 18 F
  • 15W-50 at 135 C (275 F) - Temp delta = 63 F
It's pretty obvious why Ford and other manufacturers recommend a heavier oil for track use where elevated oil temperatures occur. A car running around on the street with 15W-50 at 212 F would be like it running around with 5W-20 at 158 F, and 5W-30 at 172 F.

You can also see that at 100 C (212 F), which is where most engine's oil temperature runs during normal street driving, there isn't much difference between 5W-20 and 5W-30. But, if you look at the High Temperature High Shear viscosity (HTSH measured at 150 C) of 5W-20 vs 5W-30 you'll see that 5W-30 does give a bit more added minimum film thickness between parts - which is important in keeping moving parts from contacting each other.

There will be no issues at all running a 5W-30 on the street as it will give added film thickness protection between parts in case you do get a bit nuts and drive it hard at times. 5W-20 will probably be just fine for most street driving, but 5W-30 will give insurance that protection remains if you hammer it hard for any extended periods.

M1 Oil Viscosity Plots-1.JPG


M1 Oil Viscosity Plots-2.JPG
 
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Ebm

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I neglected to mention the regular GT track pack, so thank you for pointing that out. The same motivation as the Boss 302 with respect to CAFE would apply. Because the company is judged as a fleet, lower-volume vehicles (of which that trim level of the GT would counted as) are afforded the opportunity to shift the balance more towards performance at the cost of fuel economy.



Not really, because that temperature and lower ranges are only experienced during warmup (i.e. they're very temporary compared to the lifespan of the engine). The engine itself is designed to run with oil temperatures more in the 185 to 205 F range.

I was referring to your statement "Items like the hydraulic lash adjusters and the cam phasers are designed to run on the oil specified on your oil cap." The Coyote GT track pack doesn't have different cam phasers or lash adjusters. It has the same equipment as the regular Coyote. The track pack takes 5W-50 and the regular takes 5W-20.
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