BBQ Tick After Oil Change...

[bl4d3runn3r]

I'm definitely curious to hear more about this as time goes by.

Drove 60 miles today. BBQ is still gone. This stuff saved me. I hated that BBQ tick. If you have the same tick that I had, use the Ceratec. Problem solved for me. I have to thank Google and other mustang forums that they helped me to find out that an oil additive is the solution

That's how my car sounded like. New vivid without the tick coming soon. Btw I'm using amsoil 5w20 and Ceratec. Enjoy your non ticking car.

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[GT Pony]

Drove 60 miles today. BBQ is still gone. This stuff saved me. I hated that BBQ tick. If you have the same tick that I had, use the Ceratec. Problem solved for me.

How much Ceratec moly additive did you put in? That's great if it keeps the tick away. Your video shows it definately had the BBQ tick. Wonder if the moly would have to be added with every oil change. If you research, there are some oils that have a good dose of moly in them.

 

[CEHollier]

I'll remember this for if the new engine ticks

I'm going to break my new block in. And am researching products like this to help with engine lubrication. I don't see any downside with it. Another thing to consider companies used to add manganese to oil and stopped because it can affect the cats warranty. Possibly going to lighter oils to meet CAFE standards and removing manganese can cause these cars to run on razor thin lubrication. Possibly causing premature engine wear.

 

[TheLion]

In the video of the rod end side to side clearance it's really hard to say how much play there was. I honestly don't think we can say that little bit of movement was out of spec. since the person who made it didn't provide a measurement with a caliper. It moves, but you'd be surprised at how much 0.5mm of play can feel like. However it MAY be the source of the BBQ tick in some cars whose clearances are closer to the maximum even if they are NOT out of spec.

Remember maximum clearances are set such that when you tolerance a part they account for wear. So you cannot assume that because it's at the max limit of a tolerance range new as it wears it will be out of spec. There is likely a separate spec that gives wear limits as opposed to new tolerance limits. Otherwise the tolerance is incorrect. If you set a tolerance of +/- 0.5mm and the part will fail if it goes even a thousandth of a millimeter beyond 0.5mm, then your new tolerance is too generous because it does not account for normal wear which occurs in ALL mechanical assemblies.

All engine clearances for new engines are set to a range and the maximum of the tolerance allows for the expected wear which expands the clearance over time. So if your out of maximum tolerance new, it may work for a while but will fail pre-maturely as it wears. I'm not saying the 5.0 in that video wasn't out of tolerance regarding side to side play, I'm just saying we don't know and we can't assume either way. The only thing that video does is illustrate for us a possible source and nothing more.

I have a theory as to why the BBQ tick may actually be normal but not harmful: oil pressure. When the engine has no load, such as at idle or revving it in neutral or very light load when starting normally, the oil pressure is fairly low. I'm wondering if the low oil pressure allows the rod to tap the side of the crank (it wanders back and forth across the bearing surface) but still provides enough pressure to keep the hydraulic bearing filled, so the inside of the rod bearing is NOT contacting the crank, only the side of the rod. The side to side clearance is much larger normally than the bearing surface to crank shaft clearance. And it's all supplied by the same pressurized oil.

No it would not necessarily cause wear issues. The film strength of the oil I believe is more than enough to lubricate the side of the crank and rod end as it's not loaded horizontally, I would expect similar or even less side load than the cam surface to valve seat loads, which rely entirely on film strength and not hydraulic pressure like rod bearings do.

Rod bearing are loaded vertically, not horizontally. As RPM's increase the pressure of the oil rises and it may be enough that after you get up to 40~50 PSI the oil can now keep even the sides from contacting as pressure as increased enough to keep the bottom of the rod from wandering back and forth across the crank (to it's limits of travel). This might explain why there are power stroke diesels with over 200k miles that have had that noise (the infamous typewriter tick) since early on and still run fine. There are quite a few 2011-2014's also with that same tick that have anywhere from 50k to 100k miles on them now with absolutely no abnormal behavior other than that sound. Also there's going to be a decent percentage of GT owners with who either aren't sensitive to car noises (just not something they pay attention to) or have sub-par hearing and they simply can't pick up the sounds over other engine noise. The amplitude of the sound may also vary from car to car, oil to oil (everyone uses different brands), how much the car is driven, if they use additives, how much clearance their particular car has etc. So many variables.

I absolutely believe there is a point where the play could become or even be excessive on certain cars (it could be an out of tolerance part or maybe excessive wear due to using a non OE filter with no anti-drain back valve or incorrect oil viscosity or a sub-par oil pump etc.) and at that point your likely going to see some abnormal behavior and the sound will become excessively loud. However if the sound remains consistent and doesn't really worsen, to me that would indicate it might be normal even if undesirable. Ford is not the only one, Hemi's have a "tick" noise that is to my knowledge normal but irritating to many "hypercritical" owners.

I've seen a few videos on this forum where something was actually wrong, but it wasn't the BBQ tick guys. One was a spun rod bearing, it made a very defined and intense sharp tapping sound that did not decrease or fade in intensity with RPM. Another was a cylinder scoring (clearance or out of round liner) issue that resulted in more of a rattle or knocking sound. Then there was another that had the BBQ tick. Guess what? He made the biggest fuss, filed for this and that and kept at it, eventually he got his short block replaced. But you know what? He never was told there was anything actually found to be defective....his engine never failed or had a CEL etc. He just pissed and moaned so much he finally got his way.

Take the Voodoo 5.2L for another example. It has forged pistons, not hyper-eutectic. Because forged pistons have higher expansion and contraction rates, they also require larger clearances to the cylinder wall. When cold they rattle or knock. Quite a few GT350 owners thought there was something seriously wrong with their engine because they would rattle or knock quite audibly when cold around 2k to 3k RPM until the car warmed up. This is normal behavior due to clearance requirements of Forged pistons. Even some cars with Hypereutectic pistons can knock or rattle a bit when cold (especially when you hit high mileages in the 150k to 200k range), but it's less common.

It also explains why the "tick" goes away at higher RPMs or when the engine is heavily loaded during highway cruising in 6th gear. I drove all day yesterday (55 miles) with the windows down, radio off, just listening every time I was next to a barrier that reflects sound. I could hear a some what faint "tick" or "tap" at low speeds on a bridge when starting from a stop. As RPM increased it faded out until it could no longer be heard. It sounds a bit "sowing machine" is when revving it at low RPM when idle, but if I rev it up to 4k, 5k etc. it sounds extremely smooth. None of the noises are any longer defined. And I don't believe and of the mild ticks and taps I hear are just "covered" by other engine noise. Any ticks or taps my 5.0 makes are audible enough I would still be able to pick them up over increased induction noise etc. I also drove across several bridges yesterday at 70 MPH in 6th gear and I heard absolutely no ticks or taps. I even stepped on it (floored it) in 6th for a few seconds to see if I could induce anything it just smoothly rhythmically accelerated slowly. No, I'm not worried about damaging the engine, it's drive by wire, the ECU has full control of fuel, air and timing. There's no throttle input I can do to "force" it into an unsafe condition unlike mechanical cable operated throttles.

My theory also explains why the oil composition matters so much (regarding noise) even among 5W-20 types and why almost no GT's in Australia have that issue as they are specified to run 5W-30 due to the higher average ambient temperature. It seems that in all cases I've found, going back to Motorcraft 5W-20 after having run a full synthetic does reduce the sound even if it doesn't eliminate it as does running higher viscosity oils.

The Liquid Molly is a ceramic anti-wear additive for oils. Like all additives however, it's going to change the overall properties of the oil, period. It may create a higher surface tension similar to some of the Lucas oil additives that more or less slightly increases the oils ability to cling to moving parts, this could create a more effective hydraulic cushion for the side of the rod at lower RPM's where it may wonder back and fourth across the crank shaft surface, thus eliminate the tap. I do not believe it is the rod bearing contacting crank shaft bearing surface. A spun bearing won't run for long before catastrophic failure and a spun bearing "knock" will always be present.

There's a reason Ford specified a 0.5mm maximum tolerance. They are NOT new to building engines. They have literally built hundreds of millions of engines for over 100 years.....I have a high confidence level that they understand basic crank to rod bearing clearance requirements for a given oil viscosity. Also viscosity doesn't = lubrication either. Thicker oils don't actually lubricate better than thinner oils (go look at the research done on Bob is the Oil Guy). What matters is additive package and oil purity as a whole system.

Oil viscosity is chosen based on clearances of the engine and in some cases to compensate for oil thinning in higher average temperatures. Sadly, even emissions can be a deciding factor. Larger clearances require thicker oils to maintain proper pressure and a high enough flow rate to avoid over heating the oil separating those surfaces (aka oil dwell time) which can become extremely hot. Thinner oils allow tighter tolerances (which costs more, but as machining technology improves, tighter tolerances parts become more economical) and reduce pumping losses. There's a trend in high performance engines to use thinner oils and tighter tolerances because you can make more power by reducing oil pumping losses. It's not just emissions, even off-road racing has moving in that direction and they couldn't give a hoot about emissions. It's just the next logical step.

It's the same concept behind Free Valve (I believe Koenigsegg has the patent on free valve). Where each valve is controlled by a solenoid rather than ganged together on a cam shaft. You can nearly eliminate pumping losses over the RPM range and achieve maximum power at each RPM range, it's more or less Full Independent Variable Valve timing. This would also improve highway fuel economy as you can have full cylinder deactivation without incurring pumping losses the other cylinders have to bear so the benefits are greater realized. But I digress, it's all about efficiency and getting the most by reducing losses.

So Liquid Moly might be a solution if the noise is loud enough in your particular 5.0 that it bothers you, but you have no abnormal symptoms other than the noise. However I'm not sure of it's long term effects. Could it be possible that it could decrease power by increasing pumping losses? Maybe the reduction in friction of parts that rely on film strength (like the cam lobes) will off-set any increase in pumping losses or even over compensate and the net will be positive (aka more power). I don't know, i'm only playing devils advocate. It affects the oil's fluid motion properties obviously, it's not just reducing friction or it would have no impact on the ticking noise. Another question is, will it keep the 5.0 quite for a whole oil change interval or will it loose it's benefits before the oil is due for a change (sorry but 60 miles isn't by any means a conclusive long term feasibility test)?

And replacing short blocks may be more of a customer service game than "we know there's something wrong". Remember Ford want's you to keep buying their cars. A couple thousand dollars for a short block and dealer labor is a lower loss total than you buying a Chevy or Toyoda for your next car. That means they loose out on not just the sale of the car, but the profit from all of the normal service that goes along with maintaining normal wear items on the car like brakes, oil and filter changes, suspension parts etc. It's all about profit and that's the whole reason Ford Performance exists, if they weren't profitable, regardless of how great their performance enhancing parts are, they would not exist.

And if there's nothing actually wrong with your short block ,when they swap it out and send it back to Ford, how do you know they don't sell it off as a "refurbished" part to a contractor or vendor that sells refurbished engines? How how do you know they don't re-built it and then use it as a replacement for a legitimate failure? We have absolutely no idea what happens to the "BBQ ticking" short blocks after they are swapped out.

I'd imagine if there was a major issue, there would be a TSB on it and they would have changed the design. That's a pretty major problem that would affect their best selling truck line and their besting selling sports car line in a very big way. I think those with the BBQ tick constitute a very small percentage, and of those with the BBQ tick, most of them are 100% functional and it's a nuisance noise. Very few have had a specific and verified diagnosis and the ones who did all had major functional problems like constant misfire (the spun rod bearing threw a CEL), the out of tolerance cylinder consumed 3 quarts of oil in just a few thousand miles and threw misfire codes, smoked...the one that had a valve drop out and smash into a cylinder died completely and had a whole engine replaced under warranty. And all of those happend in under 10k miles. And yah, I type a lot, get over it. At least I covered all the angles.

 

[TheLion]

And here's my advice and it's the same advice I gave for the Ecoboost 2.3L guys (btw their "failed engines" list is quite a bit bigger than ours, but 99% of them were tuned with non Ford Performance tunes, only one FP tuned car threw a rod and it was replaced under warranty). Either go with Ford Performance or keep the car mostly stock (engine wise, other than a cat back) until you hit 36k miles. 1. either of those are warranty safe unless you enjoy throwing away another 7k on a short block + labor....2. both OE and Ford Performance tuning is fairly conservative and safe even under severe conditions. Neither of those calibrations are likely going to be the cause of any problems should they occur.

36k miles is a good infant mortality mileage. Meaning once you pass the bumper to bumper phase, there's a very high confidence level that there are no major mechanical defects. It also allows the engine to fully break in. Most bearing surfaces are not fully warn in until around 30k to 40k miles now with modern oil technology for all of my research findings. That's when you achieve maximum power and fuel economy, around that mileage. Also, run the MC 5W-20 for at least the first 10k miles. If you change it early, change it at 5k intervals. Some wear in is NECESSARY. And your NEVER going to be denied warranty by running the factory oil and filter and having it changed at the lower end of the "severe service" interval (5k to 7k).

Also avoid after market oil filters. Most of them do NOT contain an anti-drain back valve, so they don't actually meet OE spec. So oil drains out of the oil feed system and significantly increases the time it takes for the pump to pressurize the oil galleys. That means the only thing preventing metal on metal is the oil film strength and while modern oils are exceptionally good at that (my father in law had an oil pump fail in his 800 HP late model dirt oval car, he ran 8 laps on just oil film and when he did a tear down of the engine, the rod bearings were NOT scored at all, couldn't believe it), we don't want to rely on that unless there is no other choice and when we do, for as short of a time as possible.

There's no reason you can't run Brax X oil with the OE FL500-S filter. Just one less thing for them to point a finger at and it's filtering capacity is more than enough nor is it excessively expensive (auto zone has them for around $7~$8).

If you use brand X oil, just check the certifications to make sure it meets Ford's spec. If it does they cannot blame the oil and you can have confidence that the oil is not the issue.

Valvoline, Mobil 1, Penzoil, Castrol and many others all meet Ford's current oil spec in the 5W-20 viscosity.

 

[spogshd]

I posted the video, its what ford took when they took the pan off. Its not my car but a friends.
Ford refused to do anything as it had a tune on it. He is taking it to a garage to have the bearings changed I believe, so while its there
if you want me to ask any questions for you I will. I can ask for more vids and measures if you like. I have another couple of vids that i can post here if you like, although the mechanic was only about 12 years old lol

 

[spogshd]

Here is the others plus the original

 

[bl4d3runn3r]

How much Ceratec moly additive did you put in? That's great if it keeps the tick away. Your video shows it definately had the BBQ tick. Wonder if the moly would have to be added with every oil change. If you research, there are some oils that have a good dose of moly in them.

I bought the 300ml bottle. Dumped the whole bottle in. The manual says it will last for 30000 miles. If the tick comes back after the next change, I will add Ceratec again.

 

[scotty]

I found some of the Ceratec near me at NAPA, maybe I'll give it a shot after my next oil change.

 

[GT Pony]

In the video of the rod end side to side clearance it's really hard to say how much play there was. I honestly don't think we can say that little bit of movement was out of spec. since the person who made it didn't provide a measurement with a caliper. It moves, but you'd be surprised at how much 0.5mm of play can feel like.

Just by looking at that video the rod side clearance sure looks to be over 0.5 mm (0.020"). Yeah, it's not scientific but my calibrated eyes are usually pretty close .

Maybe the original poster of the video (@spogshd) can find out what the Tech measured at the independant shop, and if that was the only pair of rods with major side clearance.

I'd imagine if there was a major issue, there would be a TSB on it and they would have changed the design.

It's not a design issue, it's more like a parts out of spec issue, which boils down to a manufacturing QA issue. You could have the best design and drawings/specs in the world, but if manufacturing can't produce what's in those drawings and specs, then problems can arise .

 

[CEHollier]

Got my car back today. Running well. No tick. Tomorrow installing a Bob's oil catch can. Plan on breaking it in easy. Vary speeds. Don't exceed 4000 rpm. I'm looking at the Cera Tech additive when the engine is broken in. Everything I'm reading about it is good.

 

[CEHollier]

Second day after liqui moly ceratec. The BBQ tick is gone. Engine sounds like it should now. So I assume the tick is lubrication issue.

Please keep us posted on your results.

 

[ValidusTalon]

After reading this thread, the multitude of others on this forum, other forums, taking the car to the Ford dealership (who to my surprise were well aware of the issue) and demanding they do an inspection, and a friend who is a master tech I took the plunge. I ordered a bottle of Liqui Moly Ceratec. I changed my oil not long ago (2nd oil change), only has 400ish miles on it so I drained just enough to put the Liqui Moly Ceratec in. I dumped in the full 300ml, waited a few min, checked my oil level, then fired the beast up... I assumed it would take some time for the wonder liquid to work, maybe a couple hundred miles, but was astonished, no tick, at all, as I drove out of my neighborhood. This typically takes me 2 - 3 min during which I can hear the "tick" with my windows down. Always the same, low speed, under load, up to about 2K rpms (the typical symptoms described and video'ed a million times, and it always went away when the oil got up to temp).....

I took the car for a little cruise, didn't notice anything else different (oil pressure, CHT, etc.. all seemed about typical). After about 15 or 20 min of driving I parked the car and let it sit for ~6 hours, usually enough time for the oil to cool and the tick to return. I started the car, mostly expected to hear the tick as I backed out, nope, no tick... drove it around the neighborhood past the spots I typically hear it, nothing. I've repeated this test now 2X, but letting the car cool longer (~10+ hours), still no tick, the car sounds like it did before I changed my oil the first time (at about 1K miles).

FWIW I have had mine checked out, no metal shavings were detected in the oil (drained it through a filter trying to catch any), cut the filter open, nothing notable (tech at the dealership did this with me standing next to him, saying his brand new car does the same thing so he was keenly interested). On inspection via scope the cylinder walls looked perfect (as you'd expect for car with ~2K on the clock). I've had no oil use issues, no check engine light, etc... honestly if not for the good 'ol interwebs I may have dismissed the noise as my other (EU car) vehicle has noisy direct injection and my previous vehicle had the good 'ol "hemi tick" but never any issues.

Just my experience for what it's worth. It's not scientific by any stretch, I am not qualified to say this would be effective for anyone else, and am personally still a bit skeptical. This experiment does however have me questioning more and more, thinking it sure seems like it's a lubrication issue. If I were to remove my tin-foil hat I'd say Ford put something in the factory oil, else why would this have made any difference, and why do sooooo many report it following the first oil change?? I'll keep listening and will report back if anything changes...

 

[GT Pony]

Just my experience for what it's worth. It's not scientific by any stretch, I am not qualified to say this would be effective for anyone else, and am personally still a bit skeptical. This experiment does however have me questioning more and more, thinking it sure seems like it's a lubrication issue. If I were to remove my tin-foil hat I'd say Ford put something in the factory oil, else why would this have made any difference, and why do sooooo many report it following the first oil change?? I'll keep listening and will report back if anything changes...

It does seem related to the oil for sure. I'm not sure if the factory oil is any different or not because there have been lots of guys who changed oil and used Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend and never had any engine ticking afterwards.

It's possible the moly additive helps cushion parts better, which would make a difference if there was some excessive clearance going on, like in the video posted lately of the large rod side clearance. Another thing people might try is to find motor oil that has quite a bit of moly in it's formulation and see it that makes a difference in ticking.

 

[CEHollier]

Just got a short block because of metal shavings in my oil pan. Wonder how long my break in has to be before using this product.

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