Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

[bluebeastsrt]

There is 100% evidence for this post. I’ll gladly grab it if asked.

Camaro6 used to post on the front page if the Camaro won that month of course it hasn’t led in sales for a long time so people forget that even existed. I also never had seen anyone use fleet sales or ATP before like that to try to say one car is better then another as well. I understand why though. When you call people murderers, say a car is complete trash and such but get outsold by said trash it is embarrassing.

Haha you noticed that THIS MAGICAL ATP was never discussed. When they were winning the sales war also? Now that the camaro is getting the absolute sh!t kicked out of them in sales. Its all about the ATP and fleet sales. Sorry But im not drinking martin & medsenin or what ever his name is coolaid. And your right. They come over here with their Im just a car guy bullshit. And the run back and talk trash. I say put ever one of these camaro nut huggers on ignore and quit replying to their nonsense. And they'll go away. The only guy that isnt a troll. Is the johny Utah guy. Who has been here for ever. And he stays on point.

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[Hack]

You disagree that it doesn’t matter (double negative that I interpret to mean that it does...correct me if I’m wrong) and then you conclude by saying it doesn’t matter.

I think you get it, but I will humor you.

I don't want to pay more for my car. No one else does either. For a consumer, high ATP is undesirable.

High ATP doesn't mean a company is making money, so from that standpoint it doesn't say anything good about the company either. You keep acting like GM is doing well with the Camaro and your reason is high ATP. High ATP doesn't matter for the company, high net profits do. A better situation for a company is being able to sell with lower ATP than the competition while still making good profits. This is especially true if the company making more profit also is selling more cars. I have no idea whether one automobile company or another is doing better in 2018, but stopping production of cars and going bankrupt are not favorable signs.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

The only guy that isnt a troll. Is the johny Utah guy. Who has been here for ever. And he stays on point.

I've been waiting for just this moment to say that the Mustang sucks. Ha ha

 

[Benjj]

I've been waiting for just this moment to say that the Mustang sucks. Ha ha

Finally, the camaro6 plan to plant JohnnyUtah behind enemy lines worked. Blue agrees with johnny that the Mustang sucks /thread

 

[Benjj]

Haha you noticed that THIS MAGICAL ATP was never discussed. When they were winning the sales war also? Now that the camaro is getting the absolute sh!t kicked out of them in sales. Its all about the ATP and fleet sales. Sorry But im not drinking martin & medsenin or what ever his name is coolaid. And your right. They come over here with their Im just a car guy bullshit. And the run back and talk trash. I say put ever one of these camaro nut huggers on ignore and quit replying to their nonsense. And they'll go away. The only guy that isnt a troll. Is the johny Utah guy. Who has been here for ever. And he stays on point.

You guys can’t quit us.

 

[4V Mayhem]

I don't think it's that easy to come up with a cooler setup that is as durable as Ford wants it to be. Remember that the GT350s have already had a cooler line recall. The MT-82 case doesn't have provisions for cooler lines to be attached, I assume. So Ford could have had a unique transmission case designed, but then they would still have to come up with the pump, lines, etc. There are aftermarket systems available, but they probably don't meet Ford's specs for reliability or for ease of installation on the assembly line.

The other thing is that Ford could have just dropped in the GT350 transmission with built in cooler and the rear diff cooler, but possibly they didn't want to use that many unique GT350 components on the PP2.

I would be really surprised if the PP2 won't bump up against heat warnings when driven hard on the track.

Ok. So we know Ford didn't intend to put coolers on it. The question is, would it be considered a failure if someone goes to the track and overheats? See I don't understand the criticisms. Someone takes a GT PP2 to the track, runs it, it overheats, and then they get mad? Although Ford made it clear that they were not putting coolers on it. If you take it to the track anyway then you shouldn't be surprised if it does overheat. Plus I doubt all of them will overheat. I'm sure some of them are just fine.

Haha you noticed that THIS MAGICAL ATP was never discussed. When they were winning the sales war also? Now that the camaro is getting the absolute sh!t kicked out of them in sales. Its all about the ATP and fleet sales. Sorry But im not drinking martin & medsenin or what ever his name is coolaid. And your right. They come over here with their Im just a car guy bullshit. And the run back and talk trash. I say put ever one of these camaro nut huggers on ignore and quit replying to their nonsense. And they'll go away. The only guy that isnt a troll. Is the johny Utah guy. Who has been here for ever. And he stays on point.

You try way to hard.

 

[ALUSA]

Well i m surprised nobody mentioned that MotorTrend finally tested the PP2 Mustang GT on the track. Best numbers are slower than the 1LE SS. The car is still faster than a Boss 302 Laguna Seca on Laguna Seca Raceway. I don’t know why they have to bring up a really old car at this point. Camaro SS 1LE 1:37.77, PP2 1:38.42, Boss 302 LS 1:41.06. Straight line acceleration numbers are also below the SS1LE. Ohh well. The car did better than most people thought though.

 

[Mountain376]

Well i m surprised nobody mentioned that MotorTrend finally tested the PP2 Mustang GT on the track. Best numbers are slower than the 1LE SS. The car is still faster than a Boss 302 Laguna Seca on Laguna Seca Raceway. I don’t know why they have to bring up a really old car at this point. Camaro SS 1LE 1:37.77, PP2 1:38.42, Boss 302 LS 1:41.06. Straight line acceleration numbers are also below the SS1LE. Ohh well. The car did better than most people thought though.

The PP2 came in where I think a lot of people expected it to.

I will say, good job, Ford, on improving the 6-pots! Really wasn't expecting the comments on the on-road ride... Very surprised...

 

[TheLion]

3rd Gen 5.0 makes quite a bit more average power than the 5th gen LT1. They may only be separated by 5hp peak, but their power bands are very different. Both are DI and have variable valve timing, but volumetric efficiency is better on the smaller displacement higher revving 5.0. It's just a physical limitation of NA engines, greater power is made by revving them out and certain architectures are better suited to that. It's also 20 lbs lighter (440 lbs vs. 465 lbs) than the LT1. Interestingly enough a Power Pack 2 equipped 2nd gen 5.0 makes literally almost identical power to a stock LT1 even though it's a big disadvantage being port injected, just shift the LT1's power band 500 RPM higher in the rev range and you have a Power Pack 2 2nd gen 5.0.

The real magic of the SS 1LE is not it's engine, it's suspension tuning and that seems to be where Ford is playing catch-up to GM. GM has decades of experience with the corvette in competition all over the world. Ford does not and they are learning on the fly as they go. I'd say it's pretty impressive where Ford is at now compared to what they had to offer just 10 years ago. I wouldn't say they are playing catch up with GM however. If that was the case then how is it that the GT350R is the fastest NA pony car on the track hands down? There's not a single review where a NA 1LE can match the GT350R which incidentally has all the same tricks employed for handling as the 1LE.

It takes a 650 HP super charged SS to beat a NA GT350R...if the GT350R was super charged or turbo charged making similar power....it'd be neck and neck.

The 1LE is an odd-ball that just happens to be at an excellent price to performance ratio for track rats. It lacks the power of the GT350R's 5.2L voodoo engine or its super charged big brothers, but has the chassis that's just as capable. It's focus is entirely on handling, bar none and that's why it's such an awesome track car. It's more expensive than a regular PP GT by quite a bit but cheaper than a GT350R by the same margin. I think the Performance Pack 2 was Ford's first attempt at a 1LE price point. Handling counts for a bigger portion of track time than power does, so the 1LE does pretty well. I'm not terribly convinced 100 lbs weight difference matters a whole lot as long as the power is there to compensate. Not when both cars are over 3,700 lbs range. Maybe on lighter cars in the 2,500 lb range a 100 lb difference is more amplified.

But it seems to me that many of Ford's cars, even their performance models, are still more set up for street use and ride comfort than as a hard core performance car with the exception of their top models in each category. The regular GT, even the Performance Package variants aren't really marketed towards hard core track rats. They are street cars first and fore most that you can drive on a track, not track cars you can drive on the street. For example the trunk space in the S550 is 50% larger than the SS. 14 vs 9 cubic feet....interior storage room is quite a bit better as well. Visibility is better, all things you look for in a Grand Touring car. For track you could care less about those aspects.

Ford doesn't really support "car guys" as a company. Their sister company, Ford Performance does. Too bad we'll never see how a regular 2015-2017 GT quipped with Ford Performance Track Handling Pack and Power Pack 3 stacks up against a 1LE or how a GT350R with all of the Ford Performance chassis, suspension and cooling upgrades would improve further....

I think Ford offered an excellent platform to work with that is just as good as the Alpha from GM, but they buried it under daily driver comfort oriented tuning and money making schemes. The PP2 is their first real attempt at track performance on a regular GT and they were within about a little over a 1/2 second of the 1LE. A little weight reduction and some better chassis tuning would go along way in squeezing that out.

I'm sure Ford Performance will give you those tweaks as they have access to a slew of professional drivers to help tune their cars. I'd say the Ford Racing team with input from their drivers could make the S550 handle just as well as a 1LE if not better. I believe that's part of what they did with the GT350R during its development and its going to be improved upon even further for 2019.

I got my 2016 GT PP because it was the cheapest decent quality muscle car I could get my hands on for under 30k. Nothing from Dodge was even close to the handling due to weight even if they are faster in a straight line stock. I paid $27,750 (plus tax and title) for a certified used 2016 PP GT with a factory 100k power train warranty, Corsa Extreme Cat Back already on it and window tint already on it with only 5,600 miles on the clock.

I could not find a bone stock manual SS in any trim for near that price unless it had a lot more miles already on it (40k~50k mile range). Power Pack 2 puts in on par power wise with the LT1. First gen S550's are lighter than the 2nd gen, with a set of light weight wheels and exhaust your looking at about 3725~3750 lbs, right where the 1LE is. It's impressive at how much better the car handles with just a few key suspension modifications (cradle lockout, toe link bearings and lowering springs with a good alignment).

I don't think it would be competitive with a 1LE handling wise with just those mods, but it sure would be with a regular 1 or 2SS and it'll smoke a stock PP GT without question, much thanks for Ford Performance and BMR for a about $2k worth of parts. It may not be the fastest, but it will embarrass some cars costing 10k to 15k more.

For drag racing merits, Braski ran a 11.86 with just a Power Pack 2, big / littles and some IRS tweaks on his 2016 PP GT 6M. The fastest 2016 SS ran a 11.9 flat with an 8 speed auto and DR's in a negative DA last time I looked at the 6 gen SS fast list for stock (yah they considered DR's stock)...that's pretty darn good considering you pitting an 8 speed auto against a 6 speed manual with roughly the same power and weight, both on drag radials. Stock he couldn't run faster than 12.7 with big / little's. Power Pack 2 and some IRS goodies knocked off a huge amount of time.

I consider Power Packs a "factory modification" because they are covered under warranty. I would not consider a tuned SS or after market tuned GT a direct comparison to stock as neither are emissions legal or covered under warranty and reliability is second rate.

It would be interesting to see how some custom track setups from the bargain bin PP GT (a base GT with just the PP ran 36k new average sticker, I found mine in the glove box, 1LE typically runs for 43k~45k average). The question is, can you make a basic PP GT competitive with a 1LE for the price difference? I'm betting 4k to 9k will.

 

[gixxersixxerman]

Well i m surprised nobody mentioned that MotorTrend finally tested the PP2 Mustang GT on the track. Best numbers are slower than the 1LE SS. The car is still faster than a Boss 302 Laguna Seca on Laguna Seca Raceway. I don’t know why they have to bring up a really old car at this point. Camaro SS 1LE 1:37.77, PP2 1:38.42, Boss 302 LS 1:41.06. Straight line acceleration numbers are also below the SS1LE. Ohh well. The car did better than most people thought though.

I believe its because the fastest a PP1 has been around it is 1:42.xx making the 302LS the fastest GT until the new PP2. i tried looking up the numbers but couldnt find Randy taking a PP1 around Laguna. Im still wanting to se a comparison around SoW, as ive been around it many times and its a good mix of HP and handling track instead of one or the other. Big Willow is HP, Horse thief is handling, SoW is a good mix.

 

[MaskedRacerX]

The 1LE is an odd-ball that just happens to be at an excellent price to performance ratio for track rats. It lacks the power of the GT350R's 5.2L voodoo engine or its super charged big brothers, but has the chassis that's just as capable. It's focus is entirely on handling, bar none and that's why it's such an awesome track car. It's more expensive than a regular PP GT by quite a bit but cheaper than a GT350R by the same margin.

Good post, but I did want to point out the bold:

It's not really "by the same margin", going by MSRP, including destination (i.e., final summary price), and using 2018 for the GT350R and 1LE and 2019 for the GT, here are the prices:

$44,995 1LE

$40,345 GT with PP1
$36,350 GT, base

$65,735 GT350R

Nothing added, other than the 1LE package to a base SS and the PP1 to a base GT. vs. a PP1 GT, the 1LE is $4650 more expensive (or $8645 more than a base model GT), however the GT350R is $20,740 more than a 1LE. The 1LE includes Mag suspension, add that to the GT which also requires a bump from 300A to 301A, and the price is $44,040, making the 1LE $955 more.

To be clear, I'm not adding any narrative to this, just kind of framing the price part of the discussion

 

[millhouse]

Well i m surprised nobody mentioned that MotorTrend finally tested the PP2 Mustang GT on the track. Best numbers are slower than the 1LE SS. The car is still faster than a Boss 302 Laguna Seca on Laguna Seca Raceway. I don’t know why they have to bring up a really old car at this point. Camaro SS 1LE 1:37.77, PP2 1:38.42, Boss 302 LS 1:41.06. Straight line acceleration numbers are also below the SS1LE. Ohh well. The car did better than most people thought though.

I'm sorry, another bullshit comparison. Different days can mean a +/- 3 second swing. There is nothing definitive as to which car is faster around the track from that article. I'm not saying the mustang should be faster, but motortrend doing a different day comparison is complete and utter bullshit.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

It’s getting ridiculous. Just test the damn cars on the same day. At the same track. If the 1Le is faster by 3/10th of a second. so be it? It won’t bother me anymore than the automatic mustang being tested to be a couple 10ths faster in a straight line.

 

[millhouse]

It’s getting ridiculous. Just test the damn cars on the same day. At the same track. If the 1Le is faster by 3/10th of a second. so be it? It won’t bother me anymore than the automatic mustang being tested to be a couple 10ths faster in a straight line.

It's completely bullshit. They are saying it's not a comparison, but then grading two cars driven on different days. It's click-bait journalism. I could give a rats ass if the mustang gets demolished. They have lost any minute credibility they may have had.

They start off with "This is not a comparison test." and finish with "However, with outright wins in acceleration, figure eight, skidpad lateral-g average, a Laguna Seca lap time, as well as the unanimously favorable subjective analysis from our staff and Randy Pobst, the Camaro SS 1LE is still the best all-around pony car available—but by a narrower margin this time."

Seriously, this is a comparison I could have done if the gave me the data. Without driving cars back to back, they are going off of their memory for a comparison. Who the hell does that!

 

[Hack]

What I didn't like about the Motor Trend review is that they talked very thoroughly about performance, but nothing else. What's the interior like? What about driving the car in traffic? Infotainment? Exhaust sound? Lighting and visibility? Seat comfort? Trunk usability? What about all the things that you do 99% of the time? Most people can't afford to spend all their time at the track. Most people also can't afford to buy a brand new car just for track outings either.

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