Ford Axing all cars except Mustang and Focus Active Crossover in North America

[B4Sunrise]

Norm, I'm not sure what you are thinking; however no one believes you are an authority on anything. Go writing posting page-long articles if it makes you happy, just don't believe anyone bothers reading them.

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[BmacIL]

Norm has more knowledge of vehicle design and engineering than the vast majority of those contributing on this forum, and I don't believe he even worked in the industry. Those of us who are engineers in the auto industry appreciate his contribution and discussions, as they are based in logic and/or sound reasoning. If you're disagreeing with him on something that has a right answer, the odds are that you're wrong. I also know that reading or paying attention for more than four sentences is hard these days...

Ford will get hurt by this move once they stop sedan sales here. There are fines to pay for not meeting CAFE standards and CUVs and SUVs, hybrid or not, won't get them there. It may make sense can them looking at most but not all the factors, but this was a Wall Street motivated change, not one with good long-term planning. I'll be very interested to see how sales shift this year and next if gas stays high-ish or keeps climbing.

 

[cosmo]

Norm has more knowledge of vehicle design and engineering than the vast majority of those contributing on this forum, and I don't believe he even worked in the industry. Those of us who are engineers in the auto industry appreciate his contribution and discussions, as they are based in logic and/or sound reasoning. If you're disagreeing with him on something that has a right answer, the odds are that you're wrong. I also know that reading or paying attention for more than four sentences is hard these days...

Ford will get hurt by this move once they stop sedan sales here. There are fines to pay for not meeting CAFE standards and CUVs and SUVs, hybrid or not, won't get them there. It may make sense can them looking at most but not all the factors, but this was a Wall Street motivated change, not one with good long-term planning. I'll be very interested to see how sales shift this year and next if gas stays high-ish or keeps climbing.

I am in the industry and can confirm, his thoughts/perspectives align to many of us engineers in the industry.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Norm, I'm not sure what you are thinking

I guess for as far as this topic is concerned, people aren't going to see Ford's announcement as being a real threat if they're at least OK with owning an SUV or a CUV. For customers not much more sedan-oriented than on the fence, it'll be a case of 'meh, I guess I'll just get one of those'. If, on the other hand, you're strongly sedan oriented, you'll see it as Ford no longer wanting you as a customer.

Hoping that Ford will still be selling conventional sedans in 5 years sounds like wishful thinking with Jims Hackett and Farley at the helm.


Norm

 

[Ebm]

.

Norm has more knowledge of vehicle design and engineering than the vast majority of those contributing on this forum, and I don't believe he even worked in the industry. Those of us who are engineers in the auto industry appreciate his contribution and discussions, as they are based in logic and/or sound reasoning. If you're disagreeing with him on something that has a right answer, the odds are that you're wrong. I also know that reading or paying attention for more than four sentences is hard these days...

Ford will get hurt by this move once they stop sedan sales here. There are fines to pay for not meeting CAFE standards and CUVs and SUVs, hybrid or not, won't get them there. It may make sense can them looking at most but not all the factors, but this was a Wall Street motivated change, not one with good long-term planning. I'll be very interested to see how sales shift this year and next if gas stays high-ish or keeps climbing.

While I do agree about Norm's value to this forum, I don't agree with your second paragraph. Have you looked at real life CAFE averages for a few manufacturers these days? Do you see where Ford lines up with other manufacturers like Chevy, Toyota, Dodge? I don't think Ford will have an issue meeting realistic CAFE standards with CUVs and SUVs. Soon at least half the fleet will be hybrid or electric. Besides, the government has no problems relaxing the CAFE standards if there is money on the line for them.

 

[Norm Peterson]

While I do agree about Norm's value to this forum, I don't agree with your second paragraph. Have you looked at real life CAFE averages for a few manufacturers these days? Do you see where Ford lines up with other manufacturers like Chevy, Toyota, Dodge? I don't think Ford will have an issue meeting realistic CAFE standards with CUVs and SUVs. Soon at least half the fleet will be hybrid or electric. Besides, the government has no problems relaxing the CAFE standards if there is money on the line for them.

It's less a matter of whether Ford can meet CAFE standards without sedans than it is about the fact that no matter what you do to make SUVs and CUVs get better mpg (equivalent mpg, as the case may be), you can apply the same technologies to sedans and do better still. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to side with "good enough" when "better" is equally possible.


Norm

 

[Ebm]

.

It's less a matter of whether Ford can meet CAFE standards without sedans than it is about the fact that no matter what you do to make SUVs and CUVs get better mpg (equivalent mpg, as the case may be), you can apply the same technologies to sedans and do better still. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to side with "good enough" when "better" is equally possible.


Norm

When good enough nets Ford more money, I would say they are okay with good enough. No matter how you slice it, the sedan market has been on the decline. Better for CAFE standards doesn't mean a hill of beans to Ford if they can't sell the car. I believe Ford has pulled the trigger a bit quick on this whole cutting sedans out and going with CUVs and SUVs. They are definitely ahead of the curve on this decision. Whether ahead of the curve is a good or bad decision, no one knows. It's all speculation right now. No one knows for sure.

 

[Big Boss]

Well if you want to show your move to quit selling sedans is correct then raise the msrp up 6k and sales will really tank

http://fordauthority.com/2018/05/20...-up-to-6k-as-ford-cuts-sparse-configurations/

Damn that sucks. I was seriously considering a sport, but it was already hard enough to find one with the options I wanted. They were pretty much all fully loaded or 0 options when I was looking.

 

[BmacIL]

When good enough nets Ford more money, I would say they are okay with good enough. No matter how you slice it, the sedan market has been on the decline. Better for CAFE standards doesn't mean a hill of beans to Ford if they can't sell the car. I believe Ford has pulled the trigger a bit quick on this whole cutting sedans out and going with CUVs and SUVs. They are definitely ahead of the curve on this decision. Whether ahead of the curve is a good or bad decision, no one knows. It's all speculation right now. No one knows for sure.

And when gas prices keep shooting up, a hybrid CUV won't be the answer, as it will be significantly more expensive than a small, ICE-powered sedan that gets comparable fuel economy. When the idea is saving money, more doesn't help.

 

[Norm Peterson]

When good enough nets Ford more money, I would say they are okay with good enough. No matter how you slice it, the sedan market has been on the decline. Better for CAFE standards doesn't mean a hill of beans to Ford if they can't sell the car.

The numbers reported here suggest that one sedan line could have been retained. Dropping the really poor performers would have been one thing; it's the extent of this pruning - all sedans for North America - that seems more than a bit arbitrary and hasty.

Then again, Hackett isn't afraid to cut. Anywhere, anybody. At Steelcase he actually laid off the guy who was best man at Hackett's own wedding (http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/01/steelcase_ceo_jim_hacketts_rem.html)


Norm

 

[Ebm]

And when gas prices keep shooting up, a hybrid CUV won't be the answer, as it will be significantly more expensive than a small, ICE-powered sedan that gets comparable fuel economy. When the idea is saving money, more doesn't help.

We will see how cheap hybrids and electrics get to in the next few years. They are currently a bit too expensive to pursue.

About gas prices, nobody knows. You are speculating, so am I. I say gas prices level out for awhile and eventually go back down and settle around $2.30-$2.40 around my parts. Currently gas is $2.75 here.

The numbers reported here suggest that one sedan line could have been retained. Dropping the really poor performers would have been one thing; it's the extent of this pruning - all sedans for North America - that seems more than a bit arbitrary and hasty.

Then again, Hackett isn't afraid to cut. Anywhere, anybody. At Steelcase he actually laid off the guy who was best man at Hackett's own wedding (http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/01/steelcase_ceo_jim_hacketts_rem.html)


Norm

Are we sure Hackett isn't a ginger(souless)? :lol:

Norm, one thing we can both agree on here is that Hackett is no good for Ford. His spontanuity won't do us or Ford any favors.

 

[nrc]

It doesn't have to be fuel economy that trips up Ford's anti-car strategy. Fashion turns on a dime and today's sporty, active lifestyle CUV can quickly become tomorrow's mom-van or family truckster station wagon.

Apologists always respond to this problem with, "Well, they can always bring those models back from Europe if things change." The trouble is that Ford has never been able to do that in a timely manner.

 

[EcoVert]

It ain't that easy it'll take at least 5 years to bring over a sedan if they want to. Between Fords bureaucracy and federal bureaucracy it'll take time.

It doesn't have to be fuel economy that trips up Ford's anti-car strategy. Fashion turns on a dime and today's sporty, active lifestyle CUV can quickly become tomorrow's mom-van or family truckster station wagon.

Apologists always respond to this problem with, "Well, they can always bring those models back from Europe if things change." The trouble is that Ford has never been able to do that in a timely manner.

Besides Hackett Ford's indecision is it biggest problem

 

[ClevelandV8]

Besides Hackett Ford's indecision is it biggest problem

Hackett was CEO of a furniture company. Bob Nardelli was CEO of Home Depot. From CBS news:

"Bob Nardelli, former CEO of Home Depot (HD) and Chrysler. Named one of the "Worst American CEOs of all time" by CNBC after sending Chrysler into bankruptcy, Nardelli served as interim CEO for gunmaker Freedom Group and director of NewPage Corp. He recently stepped down as CEO of the operations and advisory company at private equity giant Cerberus Capital Management, which owned all those companies".

 

[EcoVert]

Well here's one that'll give Ford a problem Nissan Kicks starting at 17990 and the cheapest thing Ford has in CUV, SUV is the Ecosport at 19995. Ecosport gets 29 mpg and the kicks 36. Hope Fords got something coming soon our they'll be left in the dust again.

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