Passing emissions with my Procharger

[tjwoo]

Sigh.
Cat, hO2, O2 not ready

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[mustang1]

I just checked my personal 2018 Mustang....

Stone stock, never even touched the car...
1,500 miles so far on the clock...
Car is daily driven, and a little road trip action already.

Still hasn't set the following:
- Fuel System
- Cat
- Evap
- O2
- EGR

The only tests it has passed so far are.
- Misfire
- Components
- O2 Heater

if this car cannot toggle all green by 1500 miles, it sounds like it needs warranty work.

 

[Bartly]

Sigh.
Cat, hO2, O2 not ready

Well you are ahead of me now. I let my tuner know where I was at and how many miles with no O2 sucesss. He sent me a new revision and I’m back with mostly all red monitors again, lol. Couldn’t stand just living Groundhog Day over and over with random drives out to nowhere and back, so I installed it with some faith something will be different. He also told me the HO2 wants to see 40mph like some of the others have said as well as the generic Ford Drive cycle states. I’m not sure why my factory manual states 48-65mph.

I was able to get my CAT monitor to ready last go around by following step 7 from that instruction. O2s are going to be tough, constant speed for 5 minutes without hills is nearly impossible with traffic lights and all. Freeway through town is about as flat as it gets with no stop lights, but don’t think doing 40mph is going to make us any friends in the traffic. I guess 3am might be about the only time, but there is that whole 40-100deg F thing, I am wondering if that only applies to the EVAP monitor.

Good luck!

 

[mustang1]

Here a couple of highway constant speed logs.

Log #187 was with cardboard in the radiator so you'll see it's running a little hotter. Log #189 was after I pulled the cardboard. Both logs were renamed to *.txt for posting, so if you want to open them you'll have to rename to *.csv. Looking at the downstream sensors I see they trigger to lean every 20 seconds or so, I am guessing this means the heaters are coming on? Also I do see the downstream Bank2 doesn't seem "trigger" all the time or all the way? Am I understanding this right.

Anyway, any feedback you have is welcome.
Thanks.

Chilton guide indicates the 2x front sensors , installed forward of the cats are HO2S, and the 2x back sensors are installed on the cats, labeled "Catalyst monitor sensors". I don't know what to make of the log data but the S1 sensors show in mA, which might indicate that they are the heated sensors.

O2B1S1wr(mA)
O2B2S1wr(mA)
O2B1S2_V(V)
O2B2S2_V(V)

 

[markmurfie]

So there are three PIDs that are important. Lambda, S2 voltage, and catalytic temperature.

I compared your bank 1 and bank 2 front and rear O2 sensor. It appears to me that the tune is doing what it should be. The engine goes rich, the rear O2s read lean, after about 5 seconds, sometimes less, the rear O2 start to read rich. This means the remaining O2 from combustion is being used in the cats to eliminate nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, and hydrocarbons and only have CO2, water vapor, and nitrogen left over.

The amount of fuel used to make the engine rich could have been too much or too little. The time to use up all left over oxygen and rear o2's return to reading rich could have been too long related to the cat temperature. What ever the case, it is determining the O2s are not reading where they should be, as far as emissions standards, for them to be ready.

Hopefully your tuner can help you get this sorted out, if not return to stock is the quickest easiest thing you can do yourself.

 

[Bartly]

Chilton guide indicates the 2x front sensors , installed forward of the cats are HO2S, and the 2x back sensors are installed on the cats, labeled "Catalyst monitor sensors". I don't know what to make of the log data but the S1 sensors show in mA, which might indicate that they are the heated sensors.

O2B1S1wr(mA)
O2B2S1wr(mA)
O2B1S2_V(V)
O2B2S2_V(V)

Thanks for checking. Below is what is in my FSM about the Heated O2s, it mentions monitoring the voltage for the testing, so I was thinking the sensors that were in volts were the ones to watch. I saw the other ones that were in mA, but not sure what to make of their values. All I can do now is drive it again and see what happens.

Heated Oxygen Sensor (HO2S) Monitor
The HO2S monitor is an on board strategy designed to monitor the heated oxygen sensors for concerns or deterioration which can affect
emissions. The fuel control or stream 1 HO2S are checked for correct output voltage and response rate. Response rate is the time it takes to
switch from lean to rich or rich to lean. The rear or stream 2 HO2S is monitored for correct output voltage and is used for catalyst monitoring
and fore aft oxygen sensor (FAOS) control. Input is required from the camshaft position (CMP) sensor, the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor,
the engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor or the cylinder head temperature (CHT) sensor (if equipped), the fuel rail pressure temperature
(FRPT) sensor, the fuel tank pressure (FTP) sensor, the intake air temperature (IAT) sensor, the mass airflow (MAF) sensor (if equipped), the
manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor, the throttle position (TP) sensor and vehicle speed to activate the HO2S monitor. The fuel system
monitor and misfire detection monitor must also have completed successfully before the HO2S monitor is enabled.
1. The HO2S senses the oxygen content in the exhaust flow. The typical HO2S outputs a voltage between 0 and 1.0 volt. Lean of
stoichiometric, air to fuel ratio of approximately 14.7 to 1 (9 to 1 E100), the HO2S generates a voltage between 0 and 0.45 volt. Rich of
stoichiometric, the HO2S generates a voltage between 0.45 and 1.0 volt. The current required to maintain the universal HO2S at 0.45
volt is used by the PCM to calculate the air to fuel ratio. The HO2S monitor evaluates the HO2S for correct function.
2. The time between HO2S switches is monitored after vehicle startup and during closed loop fuel conditions. Excessive time between
switches or no switches since startup indicates a concern. Since lack of switching concerns can be caused by HO2S concerns or by
shifts in the fuel system, DTCs are stored that provide additional information for the lack of switching concern. Different DTCs indicate
whether the sensor always indicates lean, rich, or disconnected. The HO2S signal is also monitored for high voltage, in excess of 1.1
volts. An over voltage condition is caused by a HO2S heater or battery power short to the HO2S signal line.
A functional test of the rear HO2S is done during normal vehicle operation. The peak rich and lean voltages are continuously monitored.
Voltages that exceed the calibrated rich and lean thresholds indicate a functional sensor. If the voltages have not exceeded the
thresholds after a long period of vehicle operation, the air to fuel ratio may be forced rich or lean in an attempt to get the rear sensor to
switch. This situation normally occurs only with a green, less than 804.7 km (500 miles), catalyst. If the sensor does not exceed the rich
and lean peak thresholds, a concern is indicated. Also, a deceleration fuel shut off rear HO2S response test is done during a deceleration
fuel shut off (DFSO) event. Carrying out the HO2S response test during a DFSO event helps to isolate a sensor concern from a catalyst
concern. The response test monitors how quickly the sensor switches from a rich to lean voltage. It also monitors if there is a delay in the
response to the rich or lean condition. If the sensor responds very slowly to the rich to lean voltage switch or is never greater than a rich
voltage threshold or less than a lean voltage threshold, a concern is indicated.
3. The malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) is activated after a concern is detected on 2 consecutive drive cycles.

 

[Bartly]

So there are three PIDs that are important. Lambda, S2 voltage, and catalytic temperature.

I compared your bank 1 and bank 2 front and rear O2 sensor. It appears to me that the tune is doing what it should be. The engine goes rich, the rear O2s read lean, after about 5 seconds, sometimes less, the rear O2 start to read rich. This means the remaining O2 from combustion is being used in the cats to eliminate nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide, and hydrocarbons and only have CO2, water vapor, and nitrogen left over.

The amount of fuel used to make the engine rich could have been too much or too little. The time to use up all left over oxygen and rear o2's return to reading rich could have been too long related to the cat temperature. What ever the case, it is determining the O2s are not reading where they should be, as far as emissions standards, for them to be ready.

Hopefully your tuner can help you get this sorted out, if not return to stock is the quickest easiest thing you can do yourself.

Thanks for taking a look. Well hopefully the new tune revisions I received last night helps the monitors complete. So I am wondering if you have any input on how the Bank 2 downstream sensor compares to Bank1. The "spikes" are much more pronounced in Bank 1 (white in image below), Bank 2 (red) almost looks like it's just not spiking as constantly. Might be something that just is normal, but thought I'd ask.

 

[Bartly]

So I have to ask one more question, hopefully someone knows. For the O2 heater monitor depending on which instructions work, it’s either 5 minutes at constant 40mph or between 48-65mph. I am wondering what gear I
Should be in. I’ve heard and read that the monitors are looking for the engine to be in low rpms, but 40mph in 6th gear puts me right around 1100rpm, which is lugging the engine pretty low/bad. Anyone know?

 

[ProChargerTECH]

if this car cannot toggle all green by 1500 miles, it sounds like it needs warranty work.

Na,

No reason to bring it in for warranty work. Not a thing wrong with it, and this isn't the first car/truck I have seen take this long setting them.

Maybe its our random weather here in KC. But again, I had a 2004 Z06 that took just under 4,000 miles to set its monitors all green. (and have seen others take forever, just had a 2012 Mustang take about 2,000)

Not worried about it. She will do it, just gotta give her some time.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

can't comment on CHT 207. Interesting that tjwoo 's car has similar issue, and didn't turn all the monitors green while in San Diego. Procharger lists a CARB# as of October. At least for the 8 psi kit. Maybe someone can chime in here, that has Stage II with all the monitors green.

The tune that was done for the CARB# was done here in-house.
The timing values, cam timing, WOT fueling, etc are all the same.

The only major difference is the change to the "split beam" injector for a divided spray pattern. (to keep wall-wetting down... which happens with the single spray pattern large injectors like 95's/1000s)

The injector in the EO# system is the LU47 injector from Ford Racing.
(due to the smaller injector we limit the boost to 8-9psi)


That car had its tuned loaded here in KC... then was driven to Cali for testing.
It set its monitors on the day it arrived in Cali, just like we expected it to.
Then passed the LV3 (ultra low emissions standard) on its first test.

 

[ProChargerTECH]

The PC tune is pretty conservative, even if it's having to drop from 18 to 14 degrees of timing. I'd like to see some of the Vortech logs on 91. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vortech rides knock sensors on 91 too. Between the high resolution/frequency of these new computers and the built in wideband calibration these are pretty safe engine management systems from the factory. I wouldn't personally wanna use 91, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to blow the engine up at 14 degrees of timing either. I would always get a custom tune if I couldn't work out proper quality fueling.

You nailed it....

As I have stated for years now about these Coyote computer systems.
They add or subtract, and that's totally normal and how it SHOULD function.

If a person sees's "0" knock, well then his tuner turned them off.
Which was crazy crazy common until recently. (and not good)

Our cars on really really good 93 and good weather will run 22 degrees.
On good 91 octane they will run somewhere around 16-18 degrees.
And on "Cali quality 91" they will run around 12-14 degrees.


But that's just about as much swing as you would see with an NA car if someone tried to run 87 one day, and 93 the next.

 

[markmurfie]

So I have to ask one more question, hopefully someone knows. For the O2 heater monitor depending on which instructions work, it’s either 5 minutes at constant 40mph or between 48-65mph. I am wondering what gear I
Should be in. I’ve heard and read that the monitors are looking for the engine to be in low rpms, but 40mph in 6th gear puts me right around 1100rpm, which is lugging the engine pretty low/bad. Anyone know?

I've heard 40 is the magic number, and I would do it in 5th to keep every thing as steady as possible. Less than 2500 rpm you should be fine.

The spikes are normal, bank 1 being different from bank 2 isn't the concern. It's what the front O2(lambda) vs the back(voltage) is seeing and how quickly their signals react to the fuel changes.

 

[mustang1]

So I have to ask one more question, hopefully someone knows. For the O2 heater monitor depending on which instructions work, it’s either 5 minutes at constant 40mph or between 48-65mph. I am wondering what gear I
Should be in. I’ve heard and read that the monitors are looking for the engine to be in low rpms, but 40mph in 6th gear puts me right around 1100rpm, which is lugging the engine pretty low/bad. Anyone know?

From what you posted earlier, RPM isn't one of the inputs.

Do you have exhaust gas analysis data ? That might provide clues.

 

[mustang1]

... A lot of the assumptions that guy makes are based on older tech. Computers are very fast today. Just look at how much resolution you get from data logging alone. I can get 60+ data sets per each second of time from a 2015+ mustang. That alone is crazy compared to older OBD2 cars where you might get a couple of sets per second. Guess what that data includes? KR data. I also bet I do not get data polling nearly as fast as the computer does it internally ;).

He even says:

"And by few years I'd say at least 10 years. I remember when computers got fast in a lot of cars, it was like mid 2000s.

Computers are the reason FI is safe today without ridiculous octanes. It's why we don't need 150 octane avgas anymore for supercharged plane engines. If you remember car manufacturers tried turbos before OBD2, and then many/most stopped, because it was a bad idea at the time. Now FI is in everything new.

2016 Corvette Owners' Manual says :

"LT4 supercharged engine, use premium unleaded meeting ASTM spec D4814 91 octane. If the octane is less than 91, damage to the engine may occur and void the vehicle warranty.

Paragraph above , they even hedge on the LT1, saying on 87, audible knocking "may be heard", and (if this occurs) to switch to 91 as soon as possible. "Otherwise, the engine could be damaged".

Doesn't sound like Chevy is very confident that their 2016 version of knock sensors and car computers will protect the engine no matter what octane fuel you use. Maybe the electronics are better in 2017, 2018 ?

 

[markmurfie]

You nailed it....

As I have stated for years now about these Coyote computer systems.
They add or subtract, and that's totally normal and how it SHOULD function.

If a person sees's "0" knock, well then his tuner turned them off.
Which was crazy crazy common until recently. (and not good)

Our cars on really really good 93 and good weather will run 22 degrees.
On good 91 octane they will run somewhere around 16-18 degrees.
And on "Cali quality 91" they will run around 12-14 degrees.


But that's just about as much swing as you would see with an NA car if someone tried to run 87 one day, and 93 the next.

That is how it should function. The octane adjustment should also be setup so that if too much pulling happens a lower octane rated spark table is used. Ford calibrated it to use 87 as a minimum and 91+ as Normal. If the tune is setup correctly you should see adding when on 91 or on 93. The knock sensors shouldn't be relied on to pull timing, that is dangerous.

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