Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

DarthMalice · Jul 19, 2018

Dodge is throwing gas on this fire now too with a scat pack designed to provide a daily driver that can rip at the 1/4 mile on the weekends...fully outfitted for drag performance it would seem. Has the standard 475 hp engine but with upgraded half shafts and other parts what would normally be aftermarket. Ford needs to make it easier to customize although I acknowledge they are winning in sales where it matters. I do wish I could have added performance pack options on my 2016 AT car.

2018OFPP1?2 · Jul 19, 2018

Silver Bullitt said:
I just find it humorous that a base GT without a tire/wheel upgrade (235 a/s on an 8" wheel) is going to compete with a 305 uhp summer tire square setup. I think the stock PP2 wheels and 305 PSC2's could hold their own on the track without a tire/wheel upgrade. To get something similar on a stock GT, you would be looking in the $3K neighborhood.

I find it humorous that people without pp2s or cup 2s are gonna tell people with them how the work. Gotta love the internets.

Norm Peterson · Jul 20, 2018

2018OFPP1?2 said:
I find it humorous that people without pp2s or cup 2s are gonna tell people with them how the work.

From an engineering perspective, the difference is in the details, not the analysis. As much as a PP2 on Cup2's may feel magically different from a base GT on base tires, there is no magic involved. Being able to relate a few resulting effects to the changes you made that caused them - this could be on most any car - helps a bit, too.

Norm

Hack · Jul 20, 2018

2018OFPP1?2 said:
I find it humorous that people without pp2s or cup 2s are gonna tell people with them how the work. Gotta love the internets.

There is no shortage of internet experts.

2018OFPP1?2 · Jul 20, 2018

Norm Peterson said:
From an engineering perspective, the difference is in the details, not the analysis. As much as a PP2 on Cup2's may feel magically different from a base GT on base tires, there is no magic involved. Being able to relate a few resulting effects to the changes you made that caused them - this could be on most any car - helps a bit, too.

Norm

I dunno Norm, think they definitely sprinkled some fairy dust on this car ;)

I'm actually referring more to the people stating cup 2s suck for dd'ing. Within the limits of a uhp summer tire, they are perfectly fine. Just like a mud terrain tire isn't optimized for every condition, neither is a uhp. Does that mean it can't be dd'd? No. It just means you have to be intelligent about it.

airfuel · Jul 20, 2018

If my Bullitt order falls through, PP2 will be in my garage.
Liking what I see so far.

wireeater · Jul 20, 2018

I like how people always revert to the "aftermarket can fix it" "a tune can fix it", bla bla bla. That is not the point of these comparisons. These packages are intended as a turn key car that is supposed to be able to go straight to the track from the dealer and run the course. Ford just went with the poser route for the PP2, Chevrolet didn't with the 1LE.

TomcatDriver · Jul 20, 2018

Well, I am inclined to believe the story that the PP2 was not formally developed with high level support, but a "skunkworks" project by some enthusiest engineers to squeeze a little more out of the GT by adding some bits from the GT350 parts bin along with the bigger/better tires/wheels. Looking through that lens it makes a lot more sense. I just think the pricing is just a little out of line for what you get, particularly since the ones I have found have been discounted little (if at all) compared to a regular GT PP1. If they had kept the Recaros as a $0 option it would be a lot better.

2018OFPP1?2 · Jul 20, 2018

wireeater said:
I like how people always revert to the "aftermarket can fix it" "a tune can fix it", bla bla bla. That is not the point of these comparisons. These packages are intended as a turn key car that is supposed to be able to go straight to the track from the dealer and run the course. Ford just went with the poser route for the PP2, Chevrolet didn't with the 1LE.

Show me that press release, because I missed it.

2018OFPP1?2 · Jul 20, 2018

wireeater said:
I like how people always revert to the "aftermarket can fix it" "a tune can fix it", bla bla bla. That is not the point of these comparisons. These packages are intended as a turn key car that is supposed to be able to go straight to the track from the dealer and run the course. Ford just went with the poser route for the PP2, Chevrolet didn't with the 1LE.

TomcatDriver said:
Well, I am inclined to believe the story that the PP2 was not formally developed with high level support, but a "skunkworks" project by some enthusiest engineers to squeeze a little more out of the GT by adding some bits from the GT350 parts bin along with the bigger/better tires/wheels. Looking through that lens it makes a lot more sense. I just think the pricing is just a little out of line for what you get, particularly since the ones I have found have been discounted little (if at all) compared to a regular GT PP1. If they had kept the Recaros as a $0 option it would be a lot better.

Everyone will place their own value on things. If you want the best GT Car you can get for <$50k, look no further.

BTW, seems like they had at least some high level support. The car has unique electrical systems tuning to optimize the 'added on bits'. Doubt all that engineering and testing time just happens in a back room.

H@mmer · Jul 20, 2018

2018OFPP1?2 said:
Everyone will place their own value on things. If you want the best GT Car you can get for <$50k, look no further.

BTW, seems like they had at least some high level support. The car has unique electrical systems tuning to optimize the 'added on bits'. Doubt all that engineering and testing time just happens in a back room.

You'd be surprised. Some of those guys are *super* dedicated.
If performance cars were just left up to the engineers, there would be no aftermarket, and we would all be driving race cars.

However, the bean-counters and management get involved, cars get nerfed, and then we start having these kinds of conversations.

It's like back in the day GM wouldn't let the Camaro guys out-do the Corvette. Then in the late 2000s, early '10s that changed. They said "fight it out."
I'll bet you the ZL1 will give a Z06 a run for its money any day of the week. For less money. And I'll bet it will outperform it on some tracks.

Silver Bullitt · Jul 20, 2018

H@mmer said:
You'd be surprised. Some of those guys are *super* dedicated.
If performance cars were just left up to the engineers, there would be no aftermarket, and we would all be driving race cars.

However, the bean-counters and management get involved, cars get nerfed, and then we start having these kinds of conversations.

It's like back in the day GM wouldn't let the Camaro guys out-do the Corvette. Then in the late 2000s, early '10s that changed. They said "fight it out."
I'll bet you the ZL1 will give a Z06 a run for its money any day of the week. For less money. And I'll bet it will outperform it on some tracks.

Shouldn't we be comparing a ZL1 to a ZR1?

H@mmer · Jul 20, 2018

Silver Bullitt said:
Shouldn't we be comparing a ZL1 to a ZR1?

I don't care what you compare it to. But considering the ZL1-1LE is less than the Z06, not to mention the ZR1, I said what I said.

You go ahead and make any anecdotal statement you want. That's all any of us are doing to waste time talking about stupid shit instead of driving our cars :cheers:

TomcatDriver · Jul 20, 2018

2018OFPP1?2 said:
Everyone will place their own value on things. If you want the best GT Car you can get for <$50k, look no further.

BTW, seems like they had at least some high level support. The car has unique electrical systems tuning to optimize the 'added on bits'. Doubt all that engineering and testing time just happens in a back room.

I've been involved in backdoor platform upgrade development efforts. It's amazing how much easier it is to get something approved when 95% (or 99%) of the work is already done. Tweaking the software (probably) wasn't any harder than installing the hardware.

2018OFPP1?2 · Jul 20, 2018

TomcatDriver said:
I've been involved in backdoor platform upgrade development efforts. It's amazing how much easier it is to get something approved when 95% (or 99%) of the work is already done. Tweaking the software (probably) wasn't any harder than installing the hardware.

Maybe I jumped to the conclusion, but I thought I read they had track testing time involved in optimizing the tuning specifically for this package. I.e., tracking, data logging, and tuning.

Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

DarthMalice

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2018OFPP1?2

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Norm Peterson

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Hack

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airfuel

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wireeater

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Silver Bullitt

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