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Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

martinjlm

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It absolutely is, but it's not enough where major driving adjustments have to be made.
And how would you who doesn’t drive one describe those “major driving adjustments” to someone who drives one every day?
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w3rkn

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I have an interest in ALL cars and try to approach them as objectively and analytically as possible. That approach has fed my family and sent my kids to college :D . Mustangs and Camaros happen to be among my favorites.

I must say it is a little pretentious of you to "disagree" with what I see everyday, as if I am wrong in thinking I see what I see. Especially when you yourself have no real point of reference. And as for the "become used to the enclosed feel".... On any given day I drive any one of four vehicles in my household. Only one is a Camaro. There is ZERO adjustment that I need to make for visibility going from any one vehicle to another. Z...E...R...O

In the picture below, my front tires are on the white line. This is representative of over 90% of the intersections I travel through. So what is the visual problem again?

The visible field from the Mustang cockpit is broader and you can see more. Doesn't make the Camaro field of view subpar or dangerous. I see more than I need to see from the Camaro. I see a bit more than that from the Mustang. One is better. Neither is bad.

:clap2:
er... Nobody is concerned with looking forward.


What many of us are abhorred over, (and what we are talking about) is the inability to see out the Camaro in all directions. I am not alone on this. As the Camaro's visibility issues have been well noted.

Again, all-around-visibility is important to a good many. And most good urban drivers attention, is not what is directly in front of them, but what is going on around them and behind them, etc. In the end, it is about One's driving needs/style. I, along with others, enjoy scanning our surroundings while we drive/pilot. I personally like the ability to see over my shoulder, and/or at on-coming on/off ramps, etc. (My head is on a swivel when I am in traffic.)


I too speak from experience. Great car, but the Camaro is not for me. So you are going to just have to agree to disagree with me (ergonomics and design).


And it is ok to disagree. :cheers:
 

martinjlm

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:clap2:
er... Nobody is concerned with looking forward.
Maybe you aren’t but the person I was originally addressing seems to have been...

millhouse said:
Go test drive a camaro at the same intersection. If you are having an issue with the mustang at that intersection, you won't be able to duck down and even see the stoplight at all with the camaro. You will have to plan on stopping well short of the stoplight. And for those that don't think that is an issue either...wait until you take off from the stoplight and don't see the car running the red light because you are blinded by the cars that are pulled up closer in the adjacent lanes.
My comments and photos were directed specifically to addressing those comments.


What many of us are abhorred over, (and what we are talking about) is the inability to see out the Camaro in all directions. I am not alone on this. As the Camaro's visibility issues have been well noted.
And that is a very good point. That is a common complaint with Camaro and Camaro suffers from this issue more than Mustang. On the other hand I have driven many other vehicles by many automakers that have horrendous blindspots based on the way most people set there mirrors.

I personally set my mirrors the way I was taught to set them in my first competitive driving class some 25 - 30 years ago (ie - before I had ever driven any Camaro of any vintage). With my mirrors set that way, I can see 360 degrees around my car without turning my head. I turn my head anyway, because I feel more comfortable doing it. But I can watch any vehicle transition from my rear view to my side view to right next to me and never turn my head. That’s in any car. I have side blind zone alert on my car but to be honest, I tend to forget it’s even there.

Again, all-around-visibility is important to a good many. And most good urban drivers attention, is not what is directly in front of them, but what is going on around them and behind them, etc. In the end, it is about One's driving needs/style. I, along with others, enjoy scanning our surroundings while we drive/pilot. I personally like the ability to see over my shoulder, and/or at on-coming on/off ramps, etc. (My head is on a swivel when I am in traffic.)
We are in violent agreement here. ;)


I too speak from experience. Great car, but the Camaro is not for me. So you are going to just have to agree to disagree with me (ergonomics and design).


And it is ok to disagree. :cheers:
Absolutely. I rather enjoy thoughtful discussions with people who have different points of view. If I didn’t I sure wouldn’t hang out here, eh? :lol: Maybe I read it wrong, but your first response to me read as if you were saying that you disagree that I could see what I said I could see. I gather now that this may not have been the way you intended it to be interpreted.
 

martinjlm

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I disagree. I think you have become use to the enclosed feel.


And again, most here are talking in comparison to the S550, not to how use you have gotten to it's poor visibility & ergonomics. Although, I'd like to hear your opinion on a few test drives of the S550 and the visibility difference & comfort level, etc.

Myself, I don't know how anyone can sit starring at the interior of the Camaros, the design is gimmicky.


Glad to see you interested in the Mustangs.. :ford:
I see that I never responded to this part of your post, so let me do that now.

Specifically thinking about S500 compared to Alpha / Gen 6.....

Visibility: Edge to Mustang, especially comparing coupe to coupe. Comparing convertible to convertible, it’s pretty close to a wash. I can still give a slight edge to Mustang due to the higher beltline of the Camaro, but to be honest, that’s really reaching.

Comfort: This is very difficult, because there are several elements to comfort and each element is highly subjective. So I can only give my own preferences to each element.
  • Seat cushion comfort: Mustang feels more cushioned to me, Camaro feels better sculpted / keeps you in a position. I would like both, but I place more value in keeping me in a good position. Camaro +
  • Lumbar support: Mustang +
  • Ride comfort: Depends. Mustang wins vs Camaro without MRC...Mustang loses vs Camaro with MRC
  • Stability during spirited driving: Camaro +. Camaro with MRC gets ++
  • Headroom: Mustang +
  • Shoulder Room: Pretty much a tie
Performance:
  1. Acceleration: Edge to Camaro. Launches better and pulls harder during most usable part of power curve. Mustang comes on like a beast near the top end. By then most “races” are over
  2. Handling: Edge to Camaro. Especially with MRC and Brembos.
  3. Braking: Camaro

Now, specific to my own choice of cars, I’ll pretend for a minute that I never worked for GM and wasn’t eligible for any of the discounts that I exercised when I bought my car. I’m just Joe off the street, trying to decide between a Mustang and a Camaro. If I were choosing between two coupes, it is really hard to say for sure which way I would fall. I think the fact that GM provides warranty for SS, ZL1, and 1LE models that are tracked would have had me lean Camaro, but it would have been closer. That and HUD. HUD could have been tie-breaker.

But since I had decided that my car would be a V8 convertible, there is no doubt it would still have been a Camaro. Here’s why...
  • No-stop drop top. Could have probably ended the list here. The top can be raised or lowered up to 30 mph. Seems gimmicky until you actually need to use it.
  • The physical form of the Camaro convertible is closer to the form of the coupe when the top is up. Mustang convertible loses a lot of the sexy fastback profile when you opt for the convertible. It looks more like a notchback when the top is up. Even though my first Mustang was a notchback, it’s my least favorite body style. Both look great with the top down, though the Camaro has a cleaner look with the hard tonneau cover.
  • Even though the SS convertible doesn’t have all of the coolers that the SS coupe has, it does have enough coolers to make it a trackable vehicle right off the lot. Mustang doesn’t offer that.
  • To get a stock Mustang convertible that competes with the performance of a stock Camaro SS convertible you have to step up to a Shelby. That changes the price picture considerably.
  • Heads Up Display. I absolutely LOVE this feature. More cars should have it.
 

jake_zx2

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[*]Acceleration: Edge to Camaro. Launches better and pulls harder during most usable part of power curve. Mustang comes on like a beast near the top end. By then most “races” are over
This is more a matter of personal preference. For me, I prefer a car that pulls harder on the top end, because the gradual buildup is more fun. Low end torque is cool at first, but gets boring (especially when you rev it out... there's no climax, it's just gets boring by 4000RPM)

I think the fact that GM provides warranty for SS, ZL1, and 1LE models that are tracked would have had me lean Camaro, but it would have been closer.
So does Ford. Only thing Ford's warranty doesn't allow is sanctioned, competition racing, which IIRC Chevy has the same restriction

[*]The physical form of the Camaro convertible is closer to the form of the coupe when the top is up. Mustang convertible loses a lot of the sexy fastback profile when you opt for the convertible. It looks more like a notchback when the top is up. Even though my first Mustang was a notchback, it’s my least favorite body style. Both look great with the top down, though the Camaro has a cleaner look with the hard tonneau cover.
That's because the physical form of the Camaro Coupe is more of a notchback, where the mustang is a true fastback. Otherwise, I agree here

[*]Even though the SS convertible doesn’t have all of the coolers that the SS coupe has, it does have enough coolers to make it a trackable vehicle right off the lot. Mustang doesn’t offer that.
Yes it does.

[*]To get a stock Mustang convertible that competes with the performance of a stock Camaro SS convertible you have to step up to a Shelby. That changes the price picture considerably.
No you don't. Just get a Performance Pack, and it'll perform on par with an SS (which is all that matters, because you can't get a 1LE convertible)
 

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millhouse

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Maybe you aren’t but the person I was originally addressing seems to have been...

I wish the quotes would retain...

I have to say, the pictures you provided are not Representative of my experiences. Cameras can play tricks on perspective, as unless you're wearing google glasses it's difficult to get a true representation of the sight-lines.

I'm 6'2" and sit fairly upright (proper driving position for my body). I encounter stop-lights daily that are far, far closer.
In some cases, I was not able to see any part of the stoplight when at the stop bar. If all of the lights you encounter are on 6 lane roads pushed 300 feet back into the horizon, sure...you may not have an issue. But for the rest of us, it truly sucks.

As for performance, by all accounts in acceleration...the MY18 GT and Camaro SS run identical 1/4 times as well as MPH. The camaro has an edge at the launch and the GT has an edge up top. I would not give an overall win to either in this category.
 

martinjlm

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I wish the quotes would retain...

I have to say, the pictures you provided are not Representative of my experiences. Cameras can play tricks on perspective, as unless you're wearing google glasses it's difficult to get a true representation of the sight-lines.

I'm 6'2" and sit fairly upright (proper driving position for my body). I encounter stop-lights daily that are far, far closer.
In some cases, I was not able to see any part of the stoplight when at the stop bar. If all of the lights you encounter are on 6 lane roads pushed 300 feet back into the horizon, sure...you may not have an issue. But for the rest of us, it truly sucks.

As for performance, by all accounts in acceleration...the MY18 GT and Camaro SS run identical 1/4 times as well as MPH. The camaro has an edge at the launch and the GT has an edge up top. I would not give an overall win to either in this category.
i certainly agree that camera placement can mess with the optics of the photo. The first photo I took was a better representation of what I could actually see. The light had just turned red, so I had time to make certain I framed what I actually saw. The 2nd one was a bit rushed, as I was expecting the light to turn and didn’t want to be “that guy”, since there were cars behind. Notice that for that one I did detail the difference between what’s in the picture and what I actually saw. One picture was taken on a 6-lane road, the other on a 4-lane road. 300 feet is the length of a football field. I think most people looking at either pic will acknowledge that 300 feet is a bit of an exaggeration.

I am not going to tell you that at your height and seating posture that you don’t have problems seeing out of a Camaro. On the other hand, you spend a lot of time implying and sometimes directly stating that ANYBODY would have the same problems you have. That is what has me shaking my head. The events coordinator of our Camaro Club is about 6’3” and north of 300 lbs. He has no issues with stoplight visibility. I believe him. You say you do. I believe you. You say anybody would. I don’t believe that at all.

As for the performance aspect....that very well be true when speaking of an ‘18 GT. My purchase decision was made in Dec. ‘16 / Jan. ‘17. Big difference. Things may be closer now.
 

Norm Peterson

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I wish the quotes would retain...
You just have to copy them before hitting the 'Quote' button and paste them in ahead of the quote yourself. Or dig the original quote up and multi-quote.


I have to say, the pictures you provided are not Representative of my experiences. Cameras can play tricks on perspective, as unless you're wearing google glasses it's difficult to get a true representation of the sight-lines.
The appearance of distance gets kind of screwed up, but the encroachment of dash, pillars, and roofline on field of view should be about the same. The camera can't bend the light before it reaches the windshield and make it look like you can see a wider view.


I'm 6'2" and sit fairly upright
This does not surprise me at all.

I'm 5'10 and wouldn't be able to see every traffic light in my wife's Subaru if I tried to drive it the way she has the seat adjusted (seatback upright, height adjustment all the way up, kind of like a formal dining room chair if that makes any sense). Her seat settings put my eyes about where you're describing you need yours to be (for whatever reason).

Do you get head to headrest contact very often? Could you wear a helmet without it pretty much resting against the headrest?


Norm
 

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The appearance of distance gets kind of screwed up, but the encroachment of dash, pillars, and roofline on field of view should be about the same. The camera can't bend the light before it reaches the windshield and make it look like you can see a wider view.
It won’t be the same if you don’t position your head exactly as your driving and hold the phone up to your eyeballs to take the picture. Any deviation from this will change how the image looks. Position the camera at your chin level a few inches forward and you’ll magically have the visibility of a minivan.




This does not surprise me at all.

I'm 5'10 and wouldn't be able to see every traffic light in my wife's Subaru if I tried to drive it the way she has the seat adjusted (seatback upright, height adjustment all the way up, kind of like a formal dining room chair if that makes any sense). Her seat settings put my eyes about where you're describing you need yours to be (for whatever reason).

Do you get head to headrest contact very often? Could you wear a helmet without it pretty much resting against the headrest?


Norm
I personally like to have a slight bend in my elbows sitting upright. Leaning the seat back doesn’t afford enough flexibility for this, as the steering wheel doesn’t pull out far enough. I don’t have T-Rex arms either. Really, my seating position makes heal toe impossible…but my body dimensions really dictate how I sit.

I still have adequate headroom, although on the occasional bad hair day I can feel my hair brush the headliner. To fit a helmet requires a notch or two more recline on the seat. Not totally uncomfortable for racing, but not the best position for daily driving either.

You can imagine me trying to do the same in the Camaro…it just doesn’t work.
 

xDUMPWEEDx

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Be careful. Chances are that visibility out of the Mustang is worse than that of the average car, too.


Norm
Coming from a '17 WRX, the Mustang was a huge difference. It felt like I was stuck looking through a Submarine periscope or something. After getting used to the Mustang, then sitting in an '18 Camaro SS at the dealer lot, you get the same type of sensation as I got switching from the WRX to the Mustang. It's jarring at first, but I'm sure you eventually get used to it and not even notice it anymore.
 

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Norm Peterson

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For me at least, it didn't take long at all. When I first got my '08, the other cars were the Maxima in my sig and a '95 626 and I never stopped driving them.

Going from a Mustang to a 1SS is definitely a smaller step than Max/626/Legacy/WRX/most any other sedan to 1SS.


Norm
 

Bigred911s

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I have 16 with no rattles and handles very well. Mustang hands down is better looking car.
 

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If you want to go to the road course, good luck trying to make it handle as good without spending big dough and making it so stiff, you can’t daily drive it.
2018 w/magneride doesn't have this issue.
 

Norm Peterson

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Why is it that people always seem to think they have to have the best handling car on the face of the earth to have fun or learn on a road course?
It's exactly the same as having to have the quickest/fastest quarter mile car where a tenth or two difference means there's a winner and a loser.

Either way, there's a difference between being able to use all (or almost all) of that performance, vs only claiming some bragging rights based on what somebody else could do with the same cars.


You don't have to spend a ton of $ or end up with something undriveable on a daily basis if you choose and spend wisely.


Norm
 

ALUSA

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When are we going to see a pp2 vs 1le comparison? I also want to see a regular gt350 vs pp2 and regular gt350 vs 1le!
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