2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

millhouse said:

Your assumption was that (Based on your misguided and incomplete information) the mustang will be unstable at high speeds.

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Never said the Mustang is unstable or unsafe at speed. I have an opinion, that based on the aerodynamic package (1LE has a spoiler like the PP2 will have vs a fake wing in the PP1) and the fact that the Mustang pulls away above 120MPH despite nearly identical HP, frontal area and CD, that the Mustang has less downforce/more lift, making is less safe, less stable.

I can also almost guarantee that if you do the mile-long race between the PP1 and PP2 that the PP1 will pull ahead after 120MPH.

The exact same happened between the ZL1 and the ZL1-1LE (with the big wing, more front/rear downforce). Just watch the Nurburgring videos of the two and you will see that while the ZL1-1LE is much faster overall, the base ZL1 has higher speeds at all the high speed segments.

1. How do you know they have the same cD when there is no public info on the Camaro's cD?
2. again, less downforce does not mean more lift. that's like saying if you aren't going forward as fast as something else, you're going backwards
3. Again, downforce isn't what creates a higher cD. You can have high downforce with a low cD.

I'm sure the PP2 might fall behind a tiny bit, but not nearly as drastically as the Camaro

Baron95 said:

Never said the Mustang is unstable or unsafe at speed. I have an opinion, that based on the aerodynamic package (1LE has a spoiler like the PP2 will have vs a fake wing in the PP1) and the fact that the Mustang pulls away above 120MPH despite nearly identical HP, frontal area and CD, that the Mustang has less downforce/more lift, making is less safe, less stable.

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So at first you claim you never said it's unsafe at speed, but later on you say it's less safe at speed. :headbonk:

Your previous post...

Baron95 said:

P.S. Whenever you have 2 similarly sized vehicles with similar CDs and near identical HP, where one of them pulls away at high speed (>120MPH) be very, very, very worried. That is a serious indication that the car that pulls ahead at high speed has lift and is less safe. I actually take the standing mile performance as a loss for the Mustang - not a win. I can almost guarantee based on those results that the Camaro is more stable at 150MPH than the Mustang. Throw a turn into the mix at those speeds and I'm not sure you'd want to be in Mustang.

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Gee, sure sounds to me like you're calling the mustang unsafe at high speeds.

They do start to get a little light and wobbly in the steering wheel at speeds over 90 MPH.

Syphon23 said:

The chassis it rides on is just not as good as the Alpha. Also in the video they say while they both have the same Mag Ride they 1LE was just tuned much better.

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Maybe I didn't hear them correctly, but I thought they said the Mustang GT was tuned more as a grand tourer and the 1LE was setup for track performance.

So if you want a track car, the 1LE might be a better fit, but for street driving the GT might be better.

I for one am not interested in a 1LE. I don't want track tires on my daily driver, and that matte hood would be too hard to maintain.

I also just don't like the interior of the Camaro. The sightlines are poor. Cheap plastics don't really bother me as much as they bothered the reviewers. However, I really hate the feeling of being in a cave.

If you really think the 1LE is great you should buy one. After a few months of daily driving it you can let us know what you think. Or if you spend most of your time at the track it would even make more sense to get the 1LE.

I would probably choose the GT over the 1LE because I only get to the track a few times a year. Also, I agree with the reviewers that the GT's engine sounds way better. I think the Coyote is a special engine and GM's engines are somewhat boring. The engine sound and feel makes more difference to me in my enjoyment of a car than knowing my car is a couple seconds faster around the road course.

4V Mayhem said:

They do start to get a little light and wobbly in the steering wheel at speeds over 90 MPH.

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Mine has been rock solid at triple digit speeds. My only complaint is hood flutter.

4V Mayhem said:

They do start to get a little light and wobbly in the steering wheel at speeds over 90 MPH.

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I assume you're referring to the 15-17, which yes, it did get light at 90 and the hood started to shake real bad. Ford adressed that in their testing though, and the new ones are notably more stable at high speeds

millhouse said:

Mine has been rock solid at triple digit speeds. My only complaint is hood flutter.

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140MPH+ on my soft cloud and it felt solid.

4V Mayhem said:

They do start to get a little light and wobbly in the steering wheel at speeds over 90 MPH.

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I've never noticed this, but whenever I achieve that kind of speed I'm fairly focused looking for the braking zone of the next corner.

Hack said:

Maybe I didn't hear them correctly, but I thought they said the Mustang GT was tuned more as a grand tourer and the 1LE was setup for track performance.

So if you want a track car, the 1LE might be a better fit, but for street driving the GT might be better.

I for one am not interested in a 1LE. I don't want track tires on my daily driver, and that matte hood would be too hard to maintain.

I also just don't like the interior of the Camaro. The sightlines are poor. Cheap plastics don't really bother me as much as they bothered the reviewers. However, I really hate the feeling of being in a cave.

If you really think the 1LE is great you should buy one. After a few months of daily driving it you can let us know what you think. Or if you spend most of your time at the track it would even make more sense to get the 1LE.

I would probably choose the GT over the 1LE because I only get to the track a few times a year. Also, I agree with the reviewers that the GT's engine sounds way better. I think the Coyote is a special engine and GM's engines are somewhat boring. The engine sound and feel makes more difference to me in my enjoyment of a car than knowing my car is a couple seconds faster around the road course.

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Most of the SS's performance advantage comes in suspension tuning and the bigger displacement LS engine (with the bias leaning fairly heavily on the engine). The 6.2 LS makes literally almost 50 ft-lbs more torque across the entire RPM range (even more so on the lower RPM range) than the gen 2 5.0...look a the dynos, gives you a pretty good idea of why it feels so strong. The 6.2 LS advantage drops some what when we bring in the new Gen 3 coyote. The RPM advantage nullifys the small torque advantage of the LS. In the dyno I saw, which didn't even rev it out, it held just over 400 whp from 5500 to 6500. LS just touches 400+ for a short while at about 5750 to 6000 rpm then starts to fall back down. The LS in the 2016 was also DI where the gen 2 5.0 is port. New gen 3 5.0 is Port / DI, best of both worlds (reliability long term and performance).

The chasis weights are nearly the same, a 2016 GT optioned with just the PP package is 3782 according to MT, their 2016 1SS was 3718. Mustang is a bit heavier, but that added weight is not worth even a 1/10th....64lbs. Throw on some lightweight wheels and tires for the money you saved....now your weight difference is down to just 26 lbs. Meaningless on a 3700+ lb cars.

The GM costs nearly $4500 more and the suspension is tuned more aggressively. The magnetic dampers are a huge advantage over the first gen S550's because they can adjust ride height and compress the springs for a higher damping rate for track applications, giving it a substantial track advantage over a traditional suspension setup that the first gen S550's used. They loose that advantage with the 2018's. GM catches up then Ford meets them. Back and fourth. Plus you can set up a first gen S550 for just as good of handling, but you won't have the street comfort. You have to pick one or the other without some serious coin.

Suspension tuning is everything (look at edmunds review of a base auto GT vs. a PP GT). There's no magic in the chassis itself, look at the design of the multi-link rears, very similar overall concept to Ford's. Same with the fronts...alpha also has an IRS too, they just were not as paranoid about NHV and ride quality as Ford was. So they used stiffer bushing design, but also deflects some, but about 1/4 as much as on the Mustang in factory form. Easy fix with the BMR kit or many others. BMR has lockout kits for the SS as well, which does have wheel hop, just not nearly as bad as the stang. With the lock out kits they are nearly identical in movement.

Remember GM also has a much higher tier company (Cadillac) and models (Corvett and ATS/CTS) to tap into. Ford doesn't have a direct competitor to the Corvett and nothing like Cadillac (Licoln is more luxury oriented), if it weren't for the Cadilac ATS and the Corvett, the Camaro would have fallen way behind. But their performance comes at a cost, literally in terms of over all quality, practicality and dollars per hp.

In terms of dollars per HP, the first gen S550 GT costs $94.92 per HP where the SS costs $100.18 per HP. Their 2016 GT ran a 12.9, their 2016 SS ran a 12.3. So 5.3% price increase for 4.9% better performance and lower over all quality car....sounds about right in price vs. performance, pay a little more you get a little more. If you want the performance from the Mustang, go after market and spend the $4500 wisely, you'll spank a stock SS with a $4500 bolt on stang.

Sky is the limit and on the fast lists the SS's aren't really any faster than the GT's when you go full bolt on and beyond. SS is a faster car stock than the 2015-2017 GT, but it's about on par with the 2018's and it has higher cost per HP to get there, period. So pick what you want based on what your goals are. You gotta pay to play!

I'm sure if Ford wanted the GT to be $4500 more expensive than it is, they could offer a larger displacement engine than the 5.0. But the 5.0 is used in the F-150 as well, so it's the common engine platform they had to work with. Pretty impressive at the power per liter they are able to make out of that engine even if it doesn't make the most absolute power. 87 HP / Liter (Coyote) vs. 73 HP / Liter (LS). That's just the Gen 2 Coyote. Gen 3 is 92 HP / Liter....if Ford had a 6.2 to work with, they probably would have used that instead, but unlike GM they had nothing like the Corvett or ATS to borrow designs from.

Let's not forget GM has nothing to compete against the GT (as in their super car). And Ford has nothing to compete against the Corvett in it's category (not in absolute performance, but in it's class / price point). Period. On a track there's not many cars that can touch a GT, but it's pretty darn expensive. Maybe we get too caught up in "who is the fastest"...if your not racing, why does it matter? 90% of us buy these cars for fun, not to be the fastest. Sure it's nice to have bragging rights, but if you want that, either buy a SS, a 2018 GT or mod your first gen S550 GT. Just two different ways to get there....

Hack said:

Maybe I didn't hear them correctly, but I thought they said the Mustang GT was tuned more as a grand tourer and the 1LE was setup for track performance.

So if you want a track car, the 1LE might be a better fit, but for street driving the GT might be better.

I for one am not interested in a 1LE. I don't want track tires on my daily driver, and that matte hood would be too hard to maintain.

I also just don't like the interior of the Camaro. The sightlines are poor. Cheap plastics don't really bother me as much as they bothered the reviewers. However, I really hate the feeling of being in a cave.

If you really think the 1LE is great you should buy one. After a few months of daily driving it you can let us know what you think. Or if you spend most of your time at the track it would even make more sense to get the 1LE.

I would probably choose the GT over the 1LE because I only get to the track a few times a year. Also, I agree with the reviewers that the GT's engine sounds way better. I think the Coyote is a special engine and GM's engines are somewhat boring. The engine sound and feel makes more difference to me in my enjoyment of a car than knowing my car is a couple seconds faster around the road course.

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Its ok. You can choose to have less performance. A lot of people are.

And that's really what it comes down to... ford does NOT make a track package for the GTs, simply because the people who typically buy them aren't tracking super regularly, and those who do would mod them to fit the bill, regardless of what they came with from factory. To ford, if you want a factory TRACK car, then you get the GT350. If you want a high performance STREET car that you'll take to the track every now and then, you buy the PP2. If you're the kind of guy who wants a street car, might someday go to the track, but mostly go from parking lot to parking lot, you get PP1

jake_zx2 said:

And that's really what it comes down to... ford does NOT make a track package for the GTs, simply because the people who typically buy them aren't tracking super regularly, and those who do would mod them to fit the bill, regardless of what they came with from factory. To ford, if you want a factory TRACK car, then you get the GT350. If you want a high performance STREET car that you'll take to the track every now and then, you buy the PP2. If you're the kind of guy who wants a street car, might someday go to the track, but mostly go from parking lot to parking lot, you get PP1

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Ford needs a hardcore track package though. All that matters is stock performance on magazines. People are dying over this.

Syphon23 said:

Its ok. You can choose to have less performance. A lot of people are.

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I get it. You are choosing to drive a 2008 model, but come on here and talk about newer stuff that performs a lot better.

I'm plenty happy with the performance vs. street manners of my GT350.

TheLion said:

Most of the SS's performance advantage comes in suspension tuning and the bigger displacement LS engine (with the bias leaning fairly heavily on the engine). The 6.2 LS makes literally almost 50 ft-lbs more torque across the entire RPM range (even more so on the lower RPM range) than the gen 2 5.0...look a the dynos, gives you a pretty good idea of why it feels so strong. The 6.2 LS advantage drops some what when we bring in the new Gen 3 coyote. The RPM advantage nullifys the small torque advantage of the LS. In the dyno I saw, which didn't even rev it out, it held just over 400 whp from 5500 to 6500. LS just touches 400+ for a short while at about 5750 to 6000 rpm then starts to fall back down. The LS in the 2016 was also DI where the gen 2 5.0 is port. New gen 3 5.0 is Port / DI, best of both worlds (reliability long term and performance).

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I agree with a lot of what you said in your post, but engine torque is meaningless with respect to performance.