Is Ford lacking on performance?

Fatguy said:

Like I said, I call that track racing.

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Well, I guess it's as close to 'racing' as you can get without being officially entered in a sanctioned race ;) .


Just so everybody knows, I wasn't doing any datalogging until after one of the track event entities I run with moved me up into their advanced & instructor run group (strictly their decision, I had picked a "lower-level" run group). I wouldn't have done any datalogging with less than a few events experience at the intermediate level under my belt, and even that might be too soon to use as a general guideline. Forget about datalogging as a novice, forget you even heard the term.


Norm

Norm Peterson said:

Well, I guess it's as close to 'racing' as you can get without being officially entered in a sanctioned race ;) .


Just so everybody knows, I wasn't doing any datalogging until after one of the track event entities I run with moved me up into their advanced & instructor run group (strictly their decision, I had picked a "lower-level" run group). I wouldn't have done any datalogging with less than a few events experience at the intermediate level under my belt, and even that might be too soon to use as a general guideline. Forget about datalogging as a novice, forget you even heard the term.


Norm

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Please Norm. Don’t be so self-deprecating. 99% here would call that racing barring the input from licenced racers or whatever they call them now. Back in my day the only racing you could actually afford was the Honda Michelin Challenge. Anyway after 30 years I may mosey down to TMP and see if Mustang culture has changed (hint: not). I dished it out back in the day so I may as well get it back on the receiving end. As for instructors I’m a bit long in the tooth for this kind of thing - but if he wants to untrain 31 years of professional bad habit’s then let him loose! :lol:


BTW: You guys don’t be intimidated by others just because they race their cars. Sometimes they roll them (first time out) because they got too aggressive and even if they win you end up with a middle aged guy with a pot belly taking high blood pressure medication in a mundane job. There is always that...

It's easy to be "hard core" when you don't have to drive much. I used to daily an 80s Fox Mustang with aftermarket suspension and an upgraded drive train. At the time I lived 2 miles from work. Then I moved about 25 miles from work and my commute has a fair amount of bumper to bumper stop and go traffic. I love the new place, but the Fox driving "experience" wasn't cutting it when I had to spend so much time in the car every single day. That was when I decided to go to a more modern vehicle.

I think if I were retired and didn't do much traveling by car I could own a ZL1 1LE and enjoy it. I would still feel really self conscious in traffic with those huge down planes and the tacked on wing, though.

Hack said:

It's easy to be "hard core" when you don't have to drive much. I used to daily an 80s Fox Mustang with aftermarket suspension and an upgraded drive train. At the time I lived 2 miles from work. Then I moved about 25 miles from work and my commute has a fair amount of bumper to bumper stop and go traffic. I love the new place, but the Fox driving "experience" wasn't cutting it when I had to spend so much time in the car every single day. That was when I decided to go to a more modern vehicle.

I think if I were retired and didn't do much traveling by car I could own a ZL1 1LE and enjoy it. I would still feel really self conscious in traffic with those huge down planes and the tacked on wing, though.

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When I moved down south I realized that A/C was a requirement. I also realized that I consistently smelled like un-burned hydrocarbons after getting into the office. At that point I new the fox had to go. It was fun and fast, but too raw for a daily commute in traffic (getting older I suppose). 45 minutes in Detroit was no problem when you're 25. When you're 40, 15 minutes in 100 degree southern heat and humidity with office attire on is less than ideal.

And I HATE the look of giant wings on vehicles. They look equally antic on the viper as the do the corvette and camaro.

millhouse said:

And I HATE the look of giant wings on vehicles. They look equally antic on the viper as the do the corvette and camaro.

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Honestly, I'm not all that crazy about them either.

But if I was more serious about dropping my lap times I'd probably suck it up and run one anyway. At that point, it'd be sort of an inside knowledge thing where I wouldn't pay any more attention to adverse comments involving picnic tables and ironing boards than I do now about having tires mounted on max-recommended width wheels.


Norm

Fatguy said:

Please Norm. Don’t be so self-deprecating.

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Really, I just kind of play at it, maybe as often as a dozen times a year. I might be playing hard, but it's still playing. I'll be at that same track next week, but I'm not expecting much. Got to knock some of the rust off myself first, and if I get some laps here and there where it feels like I'm on a drive out in the country except faster I'm going to claim success. Being fully retired does make mid-week events more easily do-able . . .

Most times on the way home after a track day I find myself realizing that traffic on the track was more courteous and far more aware at speeds over 110 mph than traffic on the highway is likely to be at any speed.


Norm

Anthony 05 GT said:

If you are spending your time on a road course beating on the car then the GM product is more suitable in stock form. For every day driving the GM product is inferior IMO. There are trade offs with everything in life.

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This is why the Camaro has been winning most car magazine comparisons, but Mustang has been killing the Camaro in monthly sales recently.

The Mustang is a better real world car. If you want those extreme HP numbers for pure performance, the 5.0L responds to mods very well. So you can have the best of both worlds if you choose Mustang.

AmericanLegend said:

This is why the Camaro has been winning most car magazine comparisons, but Mustang has been killing the Camaro in monthly sales recently.

The Mustang is a better real world car. If you want those extreme HP numbers for pure performance, the 5.0L responds to mods very well. So you can have the best of both worlds if you choose Mustang.

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And really it’s whatever makes you happy...

And - For all you boy racers out there, I for one in all my years never met one, zero, nadda, guy or gal who ever started their racing career with a V8 Mustang. It was always with less powered cars. It never occurred to me until I was looking at some new cars. If you pulled up to a guy who races his Miata or Honda or whatever and blew his doors off at the lights - would you feel superior? I actually drove beside one of these guys last night and with full door panel sponsorship decals and a real adjustable wing and lowered to all hell and offset to the max.

Would the fact you could blow the doors off this guy in a straight line make you feel superior? Does one metric of performance trump all in your mind?

I forgot to mention he had a roll cage which mostly obliterated things in the rear window. Now I don’t recommend roll cages for show on street cars. Too many head injuries. Even if you think your head won’t hit you will stretch in an accident and mash it up anyway - food for thought...

Fatguy said:

And really it’s whatever makes you happy...

And - For all you boy racers out there, I for one in all my years never met one, zero, nadda, guy or gal who ever started their racing career with a V8 Mustang. It was always with less powered cars. It never occurred to me until I was looking at some new cars. If you pulled up to a guy who races his Miata or Honda or whatever and blew his doors off at the lights - would you feel superior? I actually drove beside one of these guys last night and with full door panel sponsorship decals and a real adjustable wing and lowered to all hell and offset to the max.

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This! I cannot understate this enough. If you are truely looking to get into Motorsport, you don’t need a powerful car. You need a light car. I did my first SCCA track night in America. Wanna know the most popular car there: Honda S2000. Probably 7 I saw. Lots of Focus ST. Some miatas. Maybe 5 corvettes. Myself, a guy with a S550 Roush Stage 3, a 2010 or earlier GT and some other randoms. I saw no Camaros what so ever. None.

The reason why the Camaro is so good is because the chassis was built for caddy. Now good is good. Doesn’t matter why so much. But again the car platform is reused. Camaro buyers are getting Caddy chassis. But as good as it is, people who are serious about exploiting that capability are not buying the car.

morgande said:

The reason why the Camaro is so good is because the chassis was built for caddy. Now good is good. Doesn’t matter why so much. But again the car platform is reused. Camaro buyers are getting Caddy chassis. But as good as it is, people who are serious about exploiting that capability are not buying the car.

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That's one way of looking at it, but when they designed that platform they already knew what cars were going to be built on it. So one could argue that Caddy drivers are getting Camaro chassis, which doesn't sound quite so wonderful does it?
:cheers:

Isn't comparing the Mustang and Camaro sort of like Apples to Oranges? Both are still good at what they do. Both can be modded the way you want to improve what they do. At the end of the day its a matter of preference.

Fatguy said:

... in all my years never met one, zero, nadda, guy or gal who ever started their racing career with a V8 Mustang.

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FWIW, my (non-)racing career started with a bought-new 1972 2.0L Pinto and membership in a small sports car club . . .


Norm

Norm Peterson said:

FWIW, my (non-)racing career started with a bought-new 1972 2.0L Pinto and membership in a small sports car club . . .


Norm

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Ditto...but it was a '74. I won't talk about the engine though. It wasn't stock (at least not for a Pinto ;) )

RaceRed5.0 said:

Isn't comparing the Mustang and Camaro sort of like Apples to Oranges? Both are still good at what they do. Both can be modded the way you want to improve what they do. At the end of the day its a matter of preference.

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Nope. They're both in the same class of car, along with the Challenger. Comparisons are legit and have been going on since GM copied the Mustang idea with the Camaro way back when.

They're both apples, though one is more of a Granny Smith and the other more a MacIntosh.

Comparing the Mustang to an Impala, or a Camaro to a Fusion would be apples to oranges.

JohnD said:

Nope. They're both in the same class of car, along with the Challenger. Comparisons are legit and have been going on since GM copied the Mustang idea with the Camaro way back when.

They're both apples, though one is more of a Granny Smith and the other more a MacIntosh.

Comparing the Mustang to an Impala, or a Camaro to a Fusion would be apples to oranges.

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Okay I see your point but I meant as a apple isn't a orange neither is an orange an apple they are both fruit and both acidic and do have similarities and not all people like both. Holy crap on the verge of derailing this thread about fruit my bad. :lol::lol::lol:

Anyways I understand the difference no one is arguing that and I know they are competitors. But the horsepower range is still going back and forth between each other this whole thread is sort of proof that at the end of the day its about preference. I know the price range are different with the most recent 18 Mustangs upping the price some. Obviously there are performance differences but all that can be tweaked with mods.