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V6 automatic....was it a mistake?

fordguys550

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Yes, a higher stall wuld really help the 3.7 off the line
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Jared_J

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You are forgetting that dyno numbers are garnered in a 1:1 gear. No advantage to either there. The auto simply loses more power putting it to the ground than the manual. Nothing new.
Sigh. Dyno number on a fixed gear is one thing, real world acceleration involving multiple gears is another thing. Power number doesn't give you acceleration, torque does.

With torque converter open, for same engine speed the AT will have higher wheel torque but less wheel speed, if with same gear ratio and same final drive. (But manual and auto have different final drive makes the comparison tricky.) You may see less wheel power peak in auto for one gear, but again, power is not a measurement of acceleration and in real world you should have upshifted. The physics of acceleration does not involve power, and getting to higher speed gets higher power so it doesn't explain anything. The real deal is torque, if you care about acceleration. Power is used to sell the car, and aftermarket mods.

I'm tired of explaining and don't want to repeat what I've said again and again in different ways. Here is an article to read:
https://danielmiessler.com/study/horsepower/

Let me highlight in case you don't read:
"In fact, there’s not a single machine in existence that measures a car’s horsepower. It’s a man-made number. When a car’s performance is tested, its torque is measured using a dynamometer. The measure of an engine’s performance is torque. Horsepower is an additional number that’s attained by multiplying the torque by the RPMs."

I don't know what to argue here on transmission performance. I don't see any journalist giving test results saying S550 auto is slower than manual for an engine. If you see it please bring the link here. I thought it's common sense that a decent automatic is killing the manual in late years in performance for almost any car, either acceleration or fuel economy.
 

Jared_J

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You are forgetting that dyno numbers are garnered in a 1:1 gear. No advantage to either there. The auto simply loses more power putting it to the ground than the manual. Nothing new.
By the way, about that 1:1 gear:

Yes you use direct drive gear to do dyno run, but the torque converter is absolutely unlocked under high torque output. Don't argue with me on that.

The converter lock schedule is decided by gear, wheel speed, and engine torque. If any of the threshold is violated it will unlock. I'm not going to post the actual unlock schedule here, but you get the idea.
 

TURTL3

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Traffic sucks. Does it suck that much more with a stick shift? Not really. If you wanted the manual, you should have got it. Do I love sitting in traffic at 4pm? No. Do I love banging gears and rev matching all the other times I drive? You betcha.

Life is compromise unless you're rich :D
 

ctandc72

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By the way, about that 1:1 gear:

Yes you use direct drive gear to do dyno run, but the torque converter is absolutely unlocked under high torque output. Don't argue with me on that.

The converter lock schedule is decided by gear, wheel speed, and engine torque. If any of the threshold is violated it will unlock. I'm not going to post the actual unlock schedule here, but you get the idea.
You are correct - the dyno numbers (used by EVERY performance oriented organization (NASCAR, F1, ETC ETC ETC) are numbers generated by a formula given the data from the dyno recording that run.

It's called a STANDARD. You mentioned something to someone else in this thread about "Small sample numbers" and "being laughed at"....tell you what, I know two guys who have staffed the R&D departments (engineers) at auto manufacturers. If you told them "Dyno's don't measure HP" and proceeded to give them the internet links you gave here - they wouldn't even respond...they'd just die laughing at you.

But let's do away with the actual numbers generated by a dyno. There are a TON of variables in that. The actual dyno, the weather, the temp, the operator, smoothing factors ETC ETC.

But the huge benefit to a dyno? The reason racing teams, manufacturers etc use them? It's the measure the DIFFERENCE when modifying / tuning etc.

And if you take a V6 Automatic Mustang and a MT82 V6 Mustang with IDENTICAL options other than the transmission - the manual puts down more power. It's not bad or good - it IS.

Arguing that point is pointless...literally...

It's YOUR money and YOUR car, buy what you WANT. Simple as that.

But FACT is that a manual transmission car LOSES less power in driveline losses that an automatic. It's fact. Power includes torque BTW.

It's not bad or good - it just IS.

And what S550 meant when he stated "Loose converter" and obviously didn't understand (you mentioned "broken converters") is the STALL SPEED of the torque converter.

Drag racers have been installing "loose" converters (higher stall / flash RPM) for DECADES. It gets the engine in it's Power band OFF THE LINE for launches.

That's where the manual wins in a drag race. OFF THE LINE. Your foot / clutch is your loose converter.

I don't care what other people drive. It's not my car, not my money. If everyone did the same thing it would be boring and we likely wouldn't have the automatic aftermarket we do now.

But I can tell you that if you can LAUNCH and SHIFT a manual efficiently, it will be faster than an automatic.

Fact is most people can't do this. That isn't the fault of the transmission.

That's one of the big reasons most really fast street cars run automatics. They run big converters and many run transbrakes - but the automatic in many cases absorbs the power better from the engine (less chance of breakage) and the fact that the DRIVER is the launch control in a manual transmission car and launches / 60 foot times etc are all more repeatable (and easier to get especially with changing track conditions) and drag racing is about being able to do it over and over again.

Why do you think drag racers normally run drag radials on Auto cars and bias ply slicks / tires on stick cars? Because the manual transmission is capable of putting ALL the power of the engine TO THE REAR WHEELS immediately. The conventional auto (without a big converter and a transbrake) is not. The bias ply tire has a softer sidewall which helps lessen the driveline shock with a manual.

Now when you start talking newers AT designs (DCT, the new 10 speed in the Mustang etc) these do better than they have in the past and in fact the 10 speed has a physical advantage over the manual - not because of the shifting, but because it simply has MORE gears to keep the engine in it's power band longer going down the track.

Again, what I stated is known fact to racers. Has been for YEARS. It's not theory.

Ask road racers what they prefer?

Manual.

Did they make an automatic equipped GT350 or GT350R?

Why not? Hint - it wasn't the drag strip, that car is designed for road courses.

A manual lets the DRIVER choose what gear they want to be in (Whether or not the driver makes the wrong / right choice isn't the fault of the transmission). Manuals are lighter as well (physical weight).

Again - NONE of this matters if someone bought the car equipped with the transmission that suits what THEY wanted.

Bought an Auto? Enjoy it. Bought a manual? Enjoy it.

But using internet links - when you don't even understand what a loose converter is - doesn't help you make an argument that "auto is better" - and that's what you were trying to do....it only makes your gap in real world knowledge more evident.

Again - I don't care what someone else drives. Not my money, not my business. If they are satisfied, more power to them.
 

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Jared_J

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You are correct - the dyno numbers (used by EVERY performance oriented organization (NASCAR, F1, ETC ETC ETC) are numbers generated by a formula given the data from the dyno recording that run.

It's called a STANDARD. You mentioned something to someone else in this thread about "Small sample numbers" and "being laughed at"....tell you what, I know two guys who have staffed the R&D departments (engineers) at auto manufacturers. If you told them "Dyno's don't measure HP" and proceeded to give them the internet links you gave here - they wouldn't even respond...they'd just die laughing at you.

But let's do away with the actual numbers generated by a dyno. There are a TON of variables in that. The actual dyno, the weather, the temp, the operator, smoothing factors ETC ETC.

But the huge benefit to a dyno? The reason racing teams, manufacturers etc use them? It's the measure the DIFFERENCE when modifying / tuning etc.

And if you take a V6 Automatic Mustang and a MT82 V6 Mustang with IDENTICAL options other than the transmission - the manual puts down more power. It's not bad or good - it IS.

Arguing that point is pointless...literally...

It's YOUR money and YOUR car, buy what you WANT. Simple as that.

But FACT is that a manual transmission car LOSES less power in driveline losses that an automatic. It's fact. Power includes torque BTW.

It's not bad or good - it just IS.

And what S550 meant when he stated "Loose converter" and obviously didn't understand (you mentioned "broken converters") is the STALL SPEED of the torque converter.

Drag racers have been installing "loose" converters (higher stall / flash RPM) for DECADES. It gets the engine in it's Power band OFF THE LINE for launches.

That's where the manual wins in a drag race. OFF THE LINE. Your foot / clutch is your loose converter.

I don't care what other people drive. It's not my car, not my money. If everyone did the same thing it would be boring and we likely wouldn't have the automatic aftermarket we do now.

But I can tell you that if you can LAUNCH and SHIFT a manual efficiently, it will be faster than an automatic.

Fact is most people can't do this. That isn't the fault of the transmission.

That's one of the big reasons most really fast street cars run automatics. They run big converters and many run transbrakes - but the automatic in many cases absorbs the power better from the engine (less chance of breakage) and the fact that the DRIVER is the launch control in a manual transmission car and launches / 60 foot times etc are all more repeatable (and easier to get especially with changing track conditions) and drag racing is about being able to do it over and over again.

Why do you think drag racers normally run drag radials on Auto cars and bias ply slicks / tires on stick cars? Because the manual transmission is capable of putting ALL the power of the engine TO THE REAR WHEELS immediately. The conventional auto (without a big converter and a transbrake) is not. The bias ply tire has a softer sidewall which helps lessen the driveline shock with a manual.

Now when you start talking newers AT designs (DCT, the new 10 speed in the Mustang etc) these do better than they have in the past and in fact the 10 speed has a physical advantage over the manual - not because of the shifting, but because it simply has MORE gears to keep the engine in it's power band longer going down the track.

Again, what I stated is known fact to racers. Has been for YEARS. It's not theory.

Ask road racers what they prefer?

Manual.

Did they make an automatic equipped GT350 or GT350R?

Why not? Hint - it wasn't the drag strip, that car is designed for road courses.

A manual lets the DRIVER choose what gear they want to be in (Whether or not the driver makes the wrong / right choice isn't the fault of the transmission). Manuals are lighter as well (physical weight).

Again - NONE of this matters if someone bought the car equipped with the transmission that suits what THEY wanted.

Bought an Auto? Enjoy it. Bought a manual? Enjoy it.

But using internet links - when you don't even understand what a loose converter is - doesn't help you make an argument that "auto is better" - and that's what you were trying to do....it only makes your gap in real world knowledge more evident.

Again - I don't care what someone else drives. Not my money, not my business. If they are satisfied, more power to them.
Dude, you do know a thing about the sport of drag racing, but do you even read??

Dynos don't DIRECTLY measure HP, dynos measure TORQUE and multiply with SPEED to get POWER. Then you get READINGS of POWER.

Yes I know there are many factors affecting motor performance and controlling the variables is part of my job. That's why I'm keep repeating you need to have comparable tests to make a valid comparison. So what's new here?

Yeah if he said "stall speed" I would have known. I read too quick my bad. English is not even my first language and I don't know all of the jargons used out of the academic. If you search "loose converter" on Google scholar there is no such thing. In patents and papers the authors have to explain if mention such jargon. Doesn't mean you need to use technical terms on internet fight, but this doesn't change the fact I've written down either.

"That's where the manual wins in a drag race. OFF THE LINE. Your foot / clutch is your loose converter."
That's driveline damping. Torque multiplication is another and I've written that before as well. No way you can use your manual clutch for torque multiplication. All you've written down on drag racing is about driveline damping.

As for GT350, engineering is one thing and marketing is another. If you can't sell auto GT350 to a prejudiced market, then you don't make it.

"A manual lets the DRIVER choose what gear they want to be in"
The manual mode of mustang auto does exactly same thing, it interferes only when the driver may harm the transmission eventually. And that's another major big step about auto. Especially for later ADAS applications, they are not designed for manuals and cannot work on manual cars.

With all those BS written, go to find test results by journalists or official numbers saying manual Mustang is faster than automatic, I've written that before as well.

What I can find when directly comparing Mustang Auto to Manual acceleration, for ecoboost auto is solid faster, for GT they are the same under professional test driver, yet your average Joe is not a test driver. No results for V6 compare.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-ford-mustang-gt-automatic-test-review
"We saw 60 mph pass in 4.5 seconds and the quarter-mile in 13.0 seconds at 113 mph, identical to the manual’s times."

https://www.motorz.tv/blog/11478/manual-vs-automatic-the-performance-debate/
"Some cars, like the 2015 Ford Mustang, retain identical 0-60 times regardless of transmission. However, while an auto can come close to repeating the same 4.5 second run each time, the manual truly depends on the driver. For other cars, like the 2015 Corvette Z06, the auto will always be faster, hitting 60 in 2.95 seconds versus 3.2 for the seven speed manual."

I'm off this childish argument since those people who bite don't read. Congratulations bro, you win this internet fight.
 

ctandc72

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Dude, you do know a thing about the sport of drag racing, but do you even read??

Dynos don't DIRECTLY measure HP, dynos measure TORQUE and multiply with SPEED to get POWER. Then you get READINGS of POWER.
I just reread my post...I can't find where I made any personal jabs at you?

I stated the "..are numbers generated by a formula given the data from the dyno recording that run.

A dyno measures (chassis dyno anyway - which is what we're talking about) torque from the speed / rotation of normally a heavy metal drum. Since there is a standard mathematical formula that lets us convert torque (ft/lbs) to HP, that's how power numbers are figured. And since we also know (math) that at 5252RPM torque = HP.


I assumed you knew that when I referred to the "dyno data" I was referring to torque / measured force etc...since you've repeatedly mentioned how your job involves something along those lines.

My mistake. Still don't understand how that affects my ability to read, but okay.

It a was discussion right? Why does a discussion have to be an argument? I've learned plenty of things from people I initially disagreed with until talking with them led me to further research.

I've changed my position on many subjects when I've discovered through research - and talking to others - that my initial beliefs on a subject were in fact wrong. That's how knowledge works.

Yes I know there are many factors affecting motor performance and controlling the variables is part of my job. That's why I'm keep repeating you need to have comparable tests to make a valid comparison. So what's new here?
You are missing what I initially posted in this thread. We do NOT need to control variables or run more tests to KNOW (it's an established fact evident to every auto power train engineer) that CONVENTIONAL Automatic transmission (Such as the V6 Automatic in a Mustang) ABSORBS more power and thus puts LESS power (and torque) to the ground than an identical equipped car with a manual transmission.

This is a KNOWN FACT. This isn't and was never up for discussion.

A FLUID driven automatic transmission loses MORE power than a manual because of heat. Key word being fluid. The torque converter / auto transmission doesn't "multiply" or increase the torque output of an engine. It simply sends it along the drive train - as does the manual.

The difference is that a manual transmission has a DIRECT MECHANICAL connection to the torque coming from the engine. Fluid in a manual is for gear lubrication - that's it. In an AUTO - the fluid in the torque converter + the fluid in the transmission (shifting - valve body operation etc) is what makes it possible to pass along the torque coming from the engine to the transmission then pass it along to get the car moving.

Yeah if he said "stall speed" I would have known. I read too quick my bad. English is not even my first language and I don't know all of the jargons used out of the academic. If you search "loose converter" on Google scholar there is no such thing. In patents and papers the authors have to explain if mention such jargon. Doesn't mean you need to use technical terms on internet fight, but this doesn't change the fact I've written down either.
Why does it have to be a fight? Because you disagree with me? You disagree that a conventional automatic puts down less power to the wheels than an identical equipped manual transmission car? If you do - I'll stop. Because that's not theory - it's accepted and proven fact.

Are auto's getting better? Oh hell yeah. DCTs and even CVTs are getting better and better. But that's not what we started talking about is it?

"That's where the manual wins in a drag race. OFF THE LINE. Your foot / clutch is your loose converter."
That's driveline damping. Torque multiplication is another and I've written that before as well. No way you can use your manual clutch for torque multiplication. All you've written down on drag racing is about driveline damping.
Torque multiplication - as you seem to mean it - only occurs at low engine RPM. Basically a 'fluid reduction gear' as it were - the torque converter I'm talking about. And locking up the converter is for FUEL Mileage and efficiency. It doesn't magically make more power than a manual transmission car.

Again - my point stands - When you rev a manual transmission car to say 6K RPM and drop the clutch (tire spin / drive line breakage aside for the moment) you get all the power available from that engine at 6K RPM passed to the drive line immediately because you have a DIRECT MECHANICAL connection to the engine. A conventional automatic does not have this connection.

That's simply a fact. Not bad, not good - just is.





As for GT350, engineering is one thing and marketing is another. If you can't sell auto GT350 to a prejudiced market, then you don't make it.
Huh? I'd argue that they would have sold MORE of them if they'd offered Automatics....so if it was about marketing????

"A manual lets the DRIVER choose what gear they want to be in"
The manual mode of mustang auto does exactly same thing, it interferes only when the driver may harm the transmission eventually. And that's another major big step about auto. Especially for later ADAS applications, they are not designed for manuals and cannot work on manual cars.

With all those BS written, go to find test results by journalists or official numbers saying manual Mustang is faster than automatic, I've written that before as well.

What I can find when directly comparing Mustang Auto to Manual acceleration, for ecoboost auto is solid faster, for GT they are the same under professional test driver, yet your average Joe is not a test driver. No results for V6 compare.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-ford-mustang-gt-automatic-test-review
"We saw 60 mph pass in 4.5 seconds and the quarter-mile in 13.0 seconds at 113 mph, identical to the manual’s times."

https://www.motorz.tv/blog/11478/manual-vs-automatic-the-performance-debate/
"Some cars, like the 2015 Ford Mustang, retain identical 0-60 times regardless of transmission. However, while an auto can come close to repeating the same 4.5 second run each time, the manual truly depends on the driver. For other cars, like the 2015 Corvette Z06, the auto will always be faster, hitting 60 in 2.95 seconds versus 3.2 for the seven speed manual."

I'm off this childish argument since those people who bite don't read. Congratulations bro, you win this internet fight.
Again personal insults.

Why?

I will venture you are young - nothing wrong with that at all. I'm no scholar, as you evidently are. But I do have 30+ years experience of working on, driving, and even racing cars. I learned from guys even older than me. Technology is great...but certain things haven't changed when it comes to the internal combustion engine / power and the CONVENTIONAL automatic transmission and how it related to said power.

I PERSONALLY never ONCE stated a manual equipped Mustang is FASTER than an Auto equipped one. Maybe you mixed me up with S550? Ironic considering you've accused me of "not being able to read" more than once.

I stated the FACT that a manual transmission equipped V6 Mustang will LOSE LESS POWER TO DRIVE TRAIN LOSS than an identical equipped automatic.

That's not opinion. I don't need to search Google Scholar. I don't need to call Motor Trend. That's FACT.
 

Jared_J

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I just reread my post...I can't find where I made any personal jabs at you?

I stated the "..are numbers generated by a formula given the data from the dyno recording that run.

A dyno measures (chassis dyno anyway - which is what we're talking about) torque from the speed / rotation of normally a heavy metal drum. Since there is a standard mathematical formula that lets us convert torque (ft/lbs) to HP, that's how power numbers are figured. And since we also know (math) that at 5252RPM torque = HP.


I assumed you knew that when I referred to the "dyno data" I was referring to torque / measured force etc...since you've repeatedly mentioned how your job involves something along those lines.

My mistake. Still don't understand how that affects my ability to read, but okay.

It a was discussion right? Why does a discussion have to be an argument? I've learned plenty of things from people I initially disagreed with until talking with them led me to further research.

I've changed my position on many subjects when I've discovered through research - and talking to others - that my initial beliefs on a subject were in fact wrong. That's how knowledge works.



You are missing what I initially posted in this thread. We do NOT need to control variables or run more tests to KNOW (it's an established fact evident to every auto power train engineer) that CONVENTIONAL Automatic transmission (Such as the V6 Automatic in a Mustang) ABSORBS more power and thus puts LESS power (and torque) to the ground than an identical equipped car with a manual transmission.

This is a KNOWN FACT. This isn't and was never up for discussion.

A FLUID driven automatic transmission loses MORE power than a manual because of heat. Key word being fluid. The torque converter / auto transmission doesn't "multiply" or increase the torque output of an engine. It simply sends it along the drive train - as does the manual.

The difference is that a manual transmission has a DIRECT MECHANICAL connection to the torque coming from the engine. Fluid in a manual is for gear lubrication - that's it. In an AUTO - the fluid in the torque converter + the fluid in the transmission (shifting - valve body operation etc) is what makes it possible to pass along the torque coming from the engine to the transmission then pass it along to get the car moving.



Why does it have to be a fight? Because you disagree with me? You disagree that a conventional automatic puts down less power to the wheels than an identical equipped manual transmission car? If you do - I'll stop. Because that's not theory - it's accepted and proven fact.

Are auto's getting better? Oh hell yeah. DCTs and even CVTs are getting better and better. But that's not what we started talking about is it?



Torque multiplication - as you seem to mean it - only occurs at low engine RPM. Basically a 'fluid reduction gear' as it were - the torque converter I'm talking about. And locking up the converter is for FUEL Mileage and efficiency. It doesn't magically make more power than a manual transmission car.

Again - my point stands - When you rev a manual transmission car to say 6K RPM and drop the clutch (tire spin / drive line breakage aside for the moment) you get all the power available from that engine at 6K RPM passed to the drive line immediately because you have a DIRECT MECHANICAL connection to the engine. A conventional automatic does not have this connection.

That's simply a fact. Not bad, not good - just is.







Huh? I'd argue that they would have sold MORE of them if they'd offered Automatics....so if it was about marketing????



Again personal insults.

Why?

I will venture you are young - nothing wrong with that at all. I'm no scholar, as you evidently are. But I do have 30+ years experience of working on, driving, and even racing cars. I learned from guys even older than me. Technology is great...but certain things haven't changed when it comes to the internal combustion engine / power and the CONVENTIONAL automatic transmission and how it related to said power.

I PERSONALLY never ONCE stated a manual equipped Mustang is FASTER than an Auto equipped one. Maybe you mixed me up with S550? Ironic considering you've accused me of "not being able to read" more than once.

I stated the FACT that a manual transmission equipped V6 Mustang will LOSE LESS POWER TO DRIVE TRAIN LOSS than an identical equipped automatic.

That's not opinion. I don't need to search Google Scholar. I don't need to call Motor Trend. That's FACT.
I've said I'm off the topic. But I do apologize if I made personal insults. Sorry.
 

Stormtrooper5.0

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I would have regretted it too. Manual is just more fun imo, auto is faster but most people don't care. Its not like the manual is slow, its just a bit slower than the auto.

And as for heavy traffic, its not really an issue unless you have ankle problems or you're just lazy. I drive in heavy traffic A LOT, both city and hwy and I don't even think about it anymore...its just 2nd nature.
 
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fordguys550

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I mean, its not that much slower....what, maybe a tenth the 1/4? If at all? Now....if were talking the 10spd, yeah, its a pretty big difference. Like, half a second....or more, with the gt.

But yeah, you get a guy who can shift, and its going to be way slower. I watched a PP GT wuth mods run slower at the track than my car. And anotger stock gt pp that was even slower than that guy. It can be done, juat takes some skill
 

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matteos

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Traffic sucks. Does it suck that much more with a stick shift? Not really. If you wanted the manual, you should have got it. Do I love sitting in traffic at 4pm? No. Do I love banging gears and rev matching all the other times I drive? You betcha.

Life is compromise unless you're rich :D
There's traffic and then there's Los Angeles traffic.

My commute home from work is 5 miles and it takes me 60 minutes (all on the freeway). There is no joy in that commute even in my Mustang!
 

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There's traffic and then there's Los Angeles traffic.

My commute home from work is 5 miles and it takes me 60 minutes (all on the freeway). There is no joy in that commute even in my Mustang!
Truth. People who sit in bumper to bumper in a manual who don't mind it, more power to you. I hated it when I used to do it.

It sucks in an automatic too but not nearly as much IMO. You can still listen to an audiobook and relax without constantly clutching 1-2nd, stop, 1-2nd stop. It's a chore. I'd never commute in traffic in a mustang anyway. I'd have a cheap automatic import for that.
 

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There's traffic and then there's Los Angeles traffic.

My commute home from work is 5 miles and it takes me 60 minutes (all on the freeway). There is no joy in that commute even in my Mustang!
With a motorcycle you can split the lanes... :)

My commute is 78 miles, and it takes me an hour and ten minutes. Or 55 if I'm in a hurry.
 

matteos

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With a motorcycle you can split the lanes... :)

My commute is 78 miles, and it takes me an hour and ten minutes. Or 55 if I'm in a hurry.
I do think of that and frequently... But then I also know 3 people who've died in motorbike accidents, plus I saw another one first hand with a guy flipping right over a Miata (paralyzed. I had to go to give eye witness testimony, mostly the fault of the Miata driver)

It's not how good you are as a rider, it's about the idiots around you on their phones not paying attention when swinging out.. Plus I saw another accident on the way home last night, don't know how bad it was. So just not for me in the city, maybe if I lived in the countryside.

OK... Done complaining now! LOL.
 

Tobey

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I do think of that and frequently... But then I also know 3 people who've died in motorbike accidents, plus I saw another one first hand with a guy flipping right over a Miata (paralyzed. I had to go to give eye witness testimony, mostly the fault of the Miata driver)

It's not how good you are as a rider, it's about the idiots around you on their phones not paying attention when swinging out.. Plus I saw another accident on the way home last night, don't know how bad it was. So just not for me in the city, maybe if I lived in the countryside.

OK... Done complaining now! LOL.
Country is no better. I almost hit a deer on my bike once. Scared the poop out of me. I no longer ride. For all the reasons you stated and more.
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