Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

martinjlm said:

And who would know better?

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Your exactly right. That's why I got ride of my SS.;)

4V Mayhem said:

The debate is exactly how much visibility you need vs how much the Camaro actually gives you. And so far not one person has said that the Camaro doesn't give you enough or that it isn't sufficient. All I keep reading is that it is horrible and that is only in comparison to how much the other cars give you. In and of itself tho, compared to how much you need to see, the car would not be allowed on the road if it did not give you a specific amount of visibility. How much that is I can't answer. But again, whether you or anyone else wanna pretend that Camaro owners out there are suffering and just won't admit it, to me it sounds like that is just what you want to think. Several people on here have said time and again that they are ok with the visibility. And I don't see people trading the car in because of the visibility. Maybe it actually is something that isn't bad once you get used to it. I have driven many of the 6th Gen Camaros. I got in the car, noted the visibility, drove off, and never thought about it again after that. And each time I drive on it doesn't bother me at all. So maybe it could be that it is too much for YOU in particular. But there are also some people who complain that these cars including the Mustang are very uncomfortable for DD use. So are all of us in denial? Should they be thinking that we're all just pretending to enjoy our cars and we're literally suffering in them but don't want to admit it?

I use my gauges often and it would be nice if they were easier to access while racing.

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This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. "The debate is exactly how much visibility you need vs how much the Camaro actually gives you." You have two f&*king eyes. But you only need one to see. You willing to give up an eye? Same analogy. Then you go on to say you don't see people trading the car in because of visibility. But you quoted me. And the post you quoted says. I traded my car because the visibility sucks. Brag up how great the chassis is. Or how you love the torque. But come on. Don't try to make the visibility a none issue. Every car has flaws. The camaros biggest flaw is also what makes it look cool. That stupid low roof. The Camaro is getting out sold 3 to 1 by Mustangs. Someone might wanna figure out why instead of trying to say it doesn't have any flaws. In the case of the Camaro. The minority of the pony car buying public. That own Camaros say. The visibility isn't that bad. The majority of people say it sucks and buy a Mustang or challanger. How many times to you have to hear visibility is bad. Or see it in print. In all the major magazines. before you will just admit. It's bad?

jake_zx2 said:

I often find that I can fit A LOT more in my trunk than her's

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I'm not sure I'd want to admit that in public. :lol:

I'll throw in on the debate here since we're talking visibility, truck space, and HUD. I am a Pontiac guy, have owned many, and of course in general after being a Pontiac guy, I would've called myself a GM guy. I still love my Pontiac's but of course I can't buy a new one. If I want a new car with all the new stuff, I have to pick something else.

I rented a Camaro SS a few years ago for about a week. It was fun and I absolutely loved the HUD. I am the guy that would gladly pay decent money to have it in my Mustang. What else do I recall from the time I rented the Camaro? I hit 142 mph on the interstate. It was stupid and I don't condone it but I did. It felt like it had much more left in it, it was punchy. I also remember when I tried to put my luggage in the trunk when I got to my rental from the airport. It didn't fit. I leaned a seat forward to slide it into the back, wouldn't fit. Good thing I was renting a convertible. Dropping the top is how I finally got my luggage in the car. Me and my wife were in town for a week. It wasn't a huge bag but wasn't a carry on either. I also remember the visibility. It wasn't quite terrible but I didn't like it. Last thing I remember is the gauges down in front on the shifter. I always thought they were cool until I drove a car with those gauges. Who's bright idea was it to put gauges in a place that take your eyes that far off the road? Those gauges are absolutely useless. It was fun but after a week it left no lasting impression on me. The car didn't anyways. After 4-5 years I still wish I had a HUD.

Couple years later I rented a 2015 Mustang ecoboost premium. Mind you I have never been a Ford guy and generally didn't like Mustangs. While the power of the ecoboost didn't thrill me, I loved everything else about the car. I felt like a traitor when within a day I was already thinking about how I wanted one. My wife liked it too and told me she was ok if I wanted to buy one. My wife had always been a Chevy girl. "Note she also didn't really care for the Camaro, I thought she'd love it." Anyways the interior was nice, felt great, drove nice, and while I never liked how Mustangs (not counting the old fastbacks) looked, the new body style just did it for me. I thought about that car quite a bit after turning it in. It took a couple years but I bought my first Ford. Pretty much got exactly what I rented. A race red premium, just with a 5.0 and the performance package. I drag race, auto-x, and do track days. I still picked the Mustang. I love my car and don't regret the decision a bit.


I go with something that was said earlier. Something may be right for you but that doesn't make it the universal choice for everyone. I am personally glad the other cars are selling and giving us competition. It makes all of this more fun. :cheers:

And oh....I am flying to Houston in a couple weeks. I am renting a Challenger R/T this time.

martinjlm said:

And who would know better?

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It's pretty dramatically worse when I've gone between them back to back. There are enough times I wish I could see more out of my car. I can't imagine it being the degree worse that the Camaro is. Getting back in my car, it felt like a greenhouse after stepping out of the Camaro moments before.

It's ok. Admit it sucks and own it. It makes for a good looking side profile, sure, but GM could honestly make a killing in the segment if they didn't have such a problem in this arena, and the interior was a little better thought out (I mean seriously, that center vent location?). They'd also gain a bunch in sales with the equivalent of a non PP GT in the SS.

chain said:

I'm not sure I'd want to admit that in public. :lol:

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:lol::lol::lol:

I cross shopped the 5th gen Z28, 6th gen SS 1LE and GT350 recently (keeping mine for now) so I'll comment after driving each of these and my car pretty much back to back (to back to back).

Z28 was not stock, had 10k into the engine (heads, IM, cam, headers, etc) and was as loud as a funny car. Unreal experience from a "thats ridiculous" standpoint. Interior wise was spartan, materials were worst of the bunch and the tech was 2 generations old. To be expected, the car isn't about that. Visibility was better than the 6th Gen which was interesting since the 6th is supposed to be better. The recaro seats take a bunch or room away, raising the seat height from the stock seats (same as the SS 1LE 6th gen actually) making the poor visibility worse. Similar to the 6th gen 1LE, couldn't put arm on the door sill because it's so high, had a hard time seeing traffic lights without scrunching down and feeling ridiculous.

SS 1LE 6th gen, visibility was just horrible. I felt like I'd need a mirror on the dash to see traffic lights or pretty much anything over 6 feet tall outside the front of the car, the side? maybe 4ft... complaints above about the door sill, and high mounted recaros too. Here's were I'm a little different than some, I felt the interior was decent, at least as nice as the S550 overall, except the steering wheel, things ugly gross. Besides it being the smallest cabin of the bunch, I liked it overall and if it was like an S550 inside size and visibility wise I'd have bought one even feeling that it was the least special car of the bunch (probably tied with my car).

GT350, come on, it's not really a contest. The thing OOOZES character. If I could rationalize an extra 35k on top of my car for one I'd own one. Avalanche with no stripes or white stripes please.

My car, 15 GT PP. Getting into this to drive dealer to dealer was pretty crazy. I felt like I was getting into a forester, one of the cars with the most glass I've ever been in. It was relaxing, don't have to strain to see things outside, have plenty of head, leg and shoulder room to spare, and while it doesn't feel special, its a fun car. Slowest of the bunch but not slow. I felt besides the GT350 mine had the second best brakes (know it's not true on paper), and knowing what I owe on mine vs the cost of the others, it's the performance bargain right now, IMO. I could throw 25-35k into a number of vehicles (daily, truck to tow and trailer) and still be as much as the others.

It's pretty great being an enthusiast right now.

bluebeastsrt said:

Your exactly right. That's why I got ride of my SS.;)

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Exactly my point. For a lot of people, it’s not an issue. They buy Camaros. For a lot of people it is an issue. They don’t buy Camaros or get rid of them if they do. It’s cool to have choices.

BmacIL said:

It's pretty dramatically worse when I've gone between them back to back. There are enough times I wish I could see more out of my car. I can't imagine it being the degree worse that the Camaro is. Getting back in my car, it felt like a greenhouse after stepping out of the Camaro moments before.

It's ok. Admit it sucks and own it. It makes for a good looking side profile, sure, but GM could honestly make a killing in the segment if they didn't have such a problem in this arena, and the interior was a little better thought out (I mean seriously, that center vent location?). They'd also gain a bunch in sales with the equivalent of a non PP GT in the SS.

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A lot of truth to the bold part. Don’t be surprised to see that happen. The only real obstacle I can see to this is keeping CAFE in balance. More V8s sold = lower CAFE = have to sell more high mpg Cruze / Malibu / Trax to balance it out. Depending on the profitability of those models, it may or may not make sense to free-flow the V8.

martinjlm said:

Exactly my point. For a lot of people, it’s not an issue. They buy Camaros. For a lot of people it is an issue. They don’t buy Camaros or get rid of them if they do. It’s cool to have choices.

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Agreed. Its very good to have choices. The Camaro is a fantastic car. I'll consider another in the next generation. Once they fix the sight lines. I've driven CTS-Vs and they don't suffer the sight dilemma. So I know it can be done.

bluebeastsrt said:

Agreed. Its very good to have choices. The Camaro is a fantastic car. I'll consider another in the next generation. Once they fix the sight lines. I've driven CTS-Vs and they don't suffer the sight dilemma. So I know it can be done.

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The ATS-V is probably the best performance car they make right now (not for long though), overall. Some don't like the turbo 6 but GM did an incredible job with it. I'm seriously considering buying a clean, pre-owned one in the future.

4V Mayhem said:

Thank you. This is exactly what I'm trying to explain to him. That to him it is terrible. But to others it is perfectly fine. Just like clothes, shoes, and nearly everything else can be comfortable to one person but uncomfortable to someone else. I personally hate wearing ties. I feel like they're choking me. Even when sized properly. How would I look going up to someone and saying that they're uncomfortable and I and everyone else knows it and they're just acting like they aren't and they're being choked to death and they're in denial? LOL!!

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You are both missing the point.

It is not him, or a few others here that find the Camaro horrid and dangerous, it is nationally known throughout the automotive arena. Journalist and even Executives have commented on it (there Camaro's lack of visibility).

Most of the people who were interested in a Camaro and went to check it out, are no longer interested in them due to the lack of visibility and it has hurt it sales (Along with the horrid aesthetics inside). And as such, those who have witnessed the lack of Camaro's visibility first hand, see OTHERS who are driving a Camaro, as making a compromise on their safety for a shot at owning a bargain bin performance car.


And to your point, I have never heard anyone or any auto journalist say they prefer the Camaro's canopy over another car. Have you..? Just the opposite. So lets not play coy, or act like people's criticism is unwarranted.

Face it, people who bought the Camaro, did so because it's visibility didn't bother them all that much... (& the price was just right..)



FWIW, I drove the new Camaro not even a block before I had to turn back, & get out. Instant disgust. The Camaro was not designed by engineers or driving enthusiasts, but by a movie studio.

Performance of the new Camaro is stellar, truly. However, in general, I think most people dislike the styling and I think the same can be said of the visibility. Overall, I think that was a poor decision on the part of Chevy because of the significance of these areas to a purchasing decision, and unfortunately the visibility issue isn't easily addressed by a refresh since hardpoints are going to be a part of the problem. Some people will obviously still like the car, but these issues have obviously hindered sales. I'm hoping Chevy addresses both issues next time around, but that will mean a bit of a wait for those who were/are disappointed.

I chose my Mustang GT primarily because of how amazing the Coyote sounds as compared to the LT1.

Yes, Camaro performs tad bit better and the 1LE can hang with the GT350 and thoroughly outperform the Mustang GT, BUT it doesn't sound nearly as good as the GT.

Am I the only one who actually cares about engine sound?

PS: Camaro is a performance bargain of the century but if it doesn't sound as good then what the hell is the point?

A base Mustang GT automatic is $37,945, a base 1SS automatic is $39,490. And it is easier to find a Mustang with no options on a dealer lot than a Camaro. The price difference is part of the reason Mustang outsells Camaro.

The visibility is not that big of a deal, I've owned both, the Camaro is not dangerous, it is just different, you use your mirrors more, but after a few days you get used to the design.

The Mustang is a better value, and the 10sp is a plus over the GM 8sp. Mine is a daily driver FWIW.