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Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

thehunterooo

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Unfortunately, the PP2 just seams like a money grab. Why on earth. Would you build a car with cup tires. Great for the track. Sucks on the street . Both for cold weather handling and tire wear! Then say its not for the track? Im so glad im not into road course work. You have the 1Le. Which is a fantastic performer. That I wouldn't be cought dead in. Or the PP2. A poser track car. That poops out after a lap. Wow decisions, decisions.
Let’s get into the most important thing here, profit margin. The PP2 could have the biggest margins which makes it a winner.


That was hard to type :(
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garagelogic

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Let’s get into the most important thing here, profit margin. The PP2 could have the biggest margins which makes it a winner.


That was hard to type :(
I wonder what percentage of PP2 optioned cars will be fleet sales?
 

bluebeastsrt

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They should be very rare. I’m sure the owners will be happy that they are not on every corner.
 

ALUSA

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They should be very rare. I’m sure the owners will be happy that they are not on every corner.
Can people even tell the difference between a PP and PP2? GM at least wraps the hood of the 1le for the whole purpose of cutting sun light reflection because it’s a Race Car lol
 

thehunterooo

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Can people even tell the difference between a PP and PP2? GM at least wraps the hood of the 1le for the whole purpose of cutting sun light reflection because it’s a supercar
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Mountain376

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I fully understand, I should have clarified that it would take some modification. My point was, these cars don't need full blow coolers on the transmission, just a bit of air redirected at the cooling fins. Maximum Motorsports offers a similar bolt on though for the S550 (See below).



The work well enough to allow the Boss 302 laguna seca hot lap in the summer. From what I recall, Ford claims 20 degree temp drops...enough to keep the MT82 out of the danger zone. The Boss 302S however has a TR6060 with no cooling fins, so it's not going to as well. As for why they aren't popular here, very few complain currently of overheating transmissions...and fitting that particular scoop would take some modification. They were however very popular with the S197.

Maximum Motorsports however makes a direct bolt on for the S550...

https://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-trans-cooler-scoop-1516.html

MT82 with scoop on the Boss302

16-2012-boss-302-underside.jpg
You’re not “picking up what I am putting down.”

Also just pulling internet information from where ever.
 

millhouse

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You’re not “picking up what I am putting down.”

Also just pulling internet information from where ever.
Please enlighten me as to why air cooling and heat transfer doesn't work? These types of coolers are proven to work, especially on the MT82 with it's finned bottom.
 

ALUSA

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I m amazed if all they do is welding heat sink fins on the transmission bottom housing to cool the fluid and especially seeing how small the fin area is. If this is all you need to do on a PP2 car to keep it running then it’s a pretty cheap fix. Now the question is if it’s no biggy why didn’t Ford put it on the car from the factory?
 

Mountain376

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Please enlighten me as to why air cooling and heat transfer doesn't work? These types of coolers are proven to work, especially on the MT82 with it's finned bottom.
No where did I say, "they don't work". What I alluded to is that they are not the "fix". Don't go jumping to conclusions.

I will admit I never ran one, but when I spoke to two Mustang race shops I was told that they do help, but nothing significant and that they like to collect (scoop) lots of debris into them - especially if and when you go off, they get stuffed with everything. This was the S197 version.

No where have I see of anyone do a track test with one and document actual temperature data.

The S550 version, like in this thread:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1608825#post1608825
To which I assume you are referring to is not a great test. 1. the guy is running on the highway (steady state and at a set RPM and vehicle speed) and 2. if you look at his numbers, the effect doesn't really come into play until after 13-14 minutes of cruising... What track do you run that long down a straight at a decent speed? No where. Most track sessions are 15-25min. So, when you consider speeding up, slowing down, the track layout (can affect cooling), RPM and heat soak

Yes, it does something. I'm sure on track it does something as, most likely, the vehicle will be at least an average speed of 50-60MPH and you need at least 40-45 MPH to get any sort of air cooling to start doing anything substantial. But is it enough? I've never seen this data and those who have, indicated to me it's not major.

About the Boss 302S. Why did Tiger Racing go to the Tremec Magnum (they started with the TR6060, but then moved to the Magnum; pretty much same thing)? They began with a factory, as delivered, Mustang GT with an MT82 and tried it (actually gave it a real effort to use it). So why (I know the answer - you go find out)? The Tremec TR3160 (GT350 transmission) is used in the FP350S. The TR6060/Magnum was used in the FR500C/S, Boss 302R/S and GT350R-C (GT500 transmission). Why does the Getrag not get a spotlight?
 

Mountain376

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All-in-all, the point is this:

Yes, you can get away with no cooler on the MT82 and track the car (at least needs good fluid... minimum). However, from an "as-delivered" standpoint, it is not a good idea; thus, yes, if Ford wants to portray the PP2 as a track capable vehicle, it should come with the cooler, or at least allow the option to have them installed in a fully developed package.
 

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millhouse

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I m amazed if all they do is welding heat sink fins on the transmission bottom housing to cool the fluid and especially seeing how small the fin area is. If this is all you need to do on a PP2 car to keep it running then it’s a pretty cheap fix. Now the question is if it’s no biggy why didn’t Ford put it on the car from the factory?
The fin area is quite large. As to why Ford didn’t include it…it’s probably because the new the diff was going to overheat and cause limp mode well before the transmission….so why include something that would never be needed.

No where did I say, "they don't work". What I alluded to is that they are not the "fix". Don't go jumping to conclusions.

I will admit I never ran one, but when I spoke to two Mustang race shops I was told that they do help, but nothing significant and that they like to collect (scoop) lots of debris into them - especially if and when you go off, they get stuffed with everything. This was the S197 version.

No where have I see of anyone do a track test with one and document actual temperature data.
You’re looking at this the wrong way. They in no way will cool to the level an air to water heat exchanger will…but they don’t need to. They just need to keep the transmission out of the critical zone…which (on the Boss302LS) they have been proven to.

The S550 version, like in this thread:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1608825#post1608825
To which I assume you are referring to is not a great test. 1. the guy is running on the highway (steady state and at a set RPM and vehicle speed) and 2. if you look at his numbers, the effect doesn't really come into play until after 13-14 minutes of cruising... What track do you run that long down a straight at a decent speed? No where. Most track sessions are 15-25min. So, when you consider speeding up, slowing down, the track layout (can affect cooling), RPM and heat soak
Yeah, not a great test at all. Thermodynamics tells us that a hotter object will lose its heat faster than a cooler object. Combine that with a test that was run that barely taxed the transmission, and the only thing I got out of that test was a 22 degree heat loss. Again, keep in mind the GT350 tranmission (which was done in that test) is going to transfer heat slower as it does not have heat sinks like the MT82. That is also a different trans cooler.

Yes, it does something. I'm sure on track it does something as, most likely, the vehicle will be at least an average speed of 50-60MPH and you need at least 40-45 MPH to get any sort of air cooling to start doing anything substantial. But is it enough? I've never seen this data and those who have, indicated to me it's not major.

About the Boss 302S. Why did Tiger Racing go to the Tremec Magnum (they started with the TR6060, but then moved to the Magnum; pretty much same thing)? They began with a factory, as delivered, Mustang GT with an MT82 and tried it (actually gave it a real effort to use it). So why? The Tremec TR3160 (GT350 transmission) is used in the FP350S. The TR6060/Magnum was used in the FR500C/S, Boss 302R/S and GT350R-C (GT500 transmission).
Are we arguing about transmission choice here or cooling? Regardless of why they chose to move, the Boss 302LS trans scoop (which is MUCH smaller and less encompassing than the S550 version) was proven to work well. I see no reason why the S550 version won’t do the same. Again, you don’t need to cool the trans to 100 degrees, you just need to cool it below thermal fluid breakdown levels.
 

millhouse

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And for the record, wer're not talking about an insignificant piece of metal here. The S550 MT82 trans "scoop" is a large funnel that directs quite a bit of airflow over the cooling fins.

m5025m8_2.2503.jpg

m5025m8_3.2503.jpg

m5025m8_3.2503.jpg

m5025m8_5.2503.jpg


The proven Boss302 scoop is tiny in comparison...

16-2012-boss-302-underside.jpg


as is the GT350 scoop...

SHELBY-30-5.jpg
 

Grintch

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For a same track, same day comparrison:

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2017/2017-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-vs-2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350r-review/

GT350R: 3713 lbs
SS 1LE: 3746 lbs
SS ZL1: 3912 lbs (ouch, that's fully loaded Mustang GT Premium territory!)

The ZL1 boasts a 125 HP advantage and ran a 1:27.9 second lap time. The GT350R ran a 1:28.29 second lap time. Difference: 0.39 seconds.

Looks like willow springs is NOT a track where the ZL1 can leverage it's massive 125 HP advantage.

Yet the 2.5 mile long Lighting Lap in the C&D tests (I know, they were not the same days, so the results are some what incomparable, but give us a general idea), we have the following times:

SS 1LE: 2:54.8 seconds
GT350R: 2:51.8 seconds (3 seconds faster but has a substantial 70 HP advantage)
SS ZL1: 2:45.7 seconds (6.1 seconds fast but has a very substantial 125 HP advantage, near double the power advantage over the GT350R, nearly double the time difference.
In summary:
A $65,000 Camaro is faster than a $80,000 Mustang.
A $40,000 Camaro is almost as fast as a $80,000 Mustang (VIR Grand West is 4+ miles around, not 2.5).
A $35,000 Mustang is way slower (~10 seconds at Lightning Lap) than a $40,000 Camaro.

Now do you see why Ford is not providing PP2's for track camparos?
 

Mountain376

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1. You’re looking at this the wrong way. They in no way will cool to the level an air to water heat exchanger will…but they don’t need to. They just need to keep the transmission out of the 2. critical zone…which (on the Boss302LS) they have been proven to.

Yeah, not a great test at all. Thermodynamics tells us that a hotter object will lose its heat faster than a cooler object. Combine that with a test that was run that barely taxed the transmission, and the only thing I got out of that test was a 22 degree heat loss. Again, keep in mind the GT350 tranmission (which was done in that test) is going to transfer heat slower as it does not have heat sinks like the MT82. That is also a different trans cooler.

3. Are we arguing about transmission choice here or cooling? Regardless of why they chose to move, the Boss 302LS trans scoop (which is MUCH smaller and less encompassing than the S550 version) was proven to work well. I see no reason why the S550 version won’t do the same. Again, you don’t need to cool the trans to 100 degrees, you just need to 2. cool it below thermal fluid breakdown levels.
1. No, I'm not. I get it. The scoops do something. I'm saying, the "something" is not good enough, from an OEM standpoint of a product offering that is to be tracked and/or suggested to track. You can tout the Boss 302 LS, Ford marketing the car as a track-capable car, and it doing fine. However, "fine" is not the case, as there were plenty of people that destroyed their MT82's on Boss', including the LS, on track due to heat issues and demanding warranty. At the time, if caused a lot of pissed off customer because some dealers were denying warranty due to track use, customers retorting with all the track marketing Ford put out, and Ford eventually folding and covering tracked Boss'.

Again, it does something. Yes, cool (pun there). And, yes, with the scoop and a quality fluid, you can run on track fairly hard and not have the transmission destroy itself. But there is a risk there, still, and is something an OEM should not look past in a car marketed for "track" (as Ford learned in the past).

2. From what I gather from your statements, "the Boss 302LS trans scoop was proven to work well," and your other statements about "critical zone" and "thermal fluid breakdown levels", you are saying that, the proof of working "well" is that a car no longer goes into limp mode. Am I right?

If so, what temperature does limp mode occur in relation to transmission temperature? I'm guessing somewhere around 270-280F.

How does this effect the components around and in the transmission at consistent, elevated temperatures?

Why do OEM's, with performance cars or not, set up their transmission fluid cooling systems to 170F-ish to 200F-ish? Why do race teams try to keep temperatures under 230F? It has something to do with the two words you are throwing around: "critical zone" and "thermal fluid break down".

Furthermore, when talking about fluids breaking down, you then need to consider the part that is associated with the fluid and what happens to the part, and it's parts, in specific, as temperature go outside of normal envelope of design. A deeper rabbit hole is looking at design limitations of a part's parts (in this case, the MT82). This is where the fact of this transmission, the MT82, not being designed for American sports car/muscle cars, in the first place, comes in.

Just because you aren't in limp mode doesn't mean everything is A-OK.

3. Both, actually, as one is related to the other conversation. It is a piece of evidence that supports the topic. If you don't see that, don't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you, but I can try:

Let's pull back from the names: Ford, Mustang, MT82, TR6060, etc. You have a car and two transmission options. Whether you race the car or drive it to the grocery store: one runs at a significantly higher fluid temperature than the other, sans coolers. This isn't information in support of a topic where one of those transmission should receive a cooling system of some sort, is what you're telling me?

People run the Tremec's without coolers and they are fine. They are able to stay around 210F on the track. Hell, the TR6060 in my Camaro has a hard time getting over 120F on a 90F commute to work. On track, on a 90F day, the thing won't break 195F all day long. Yes that's with a cooler, but if one of your points is the MT82 is superior in cooling, than how come the Tremec's don't run as hot with or without a cooler in every situation? My numbers aren't just mine - other people with other cars state the same. FYI, the external case design between the TR3160 and TR6060/T56/Magnum are extremely similar; that's where the tie-in is.



Look, the MT82 needs help and it needs it more than it's alternates. Stop denying that. To argue an OEM doesn't need to put a cooler on a "track" car with the MT82 doesn't make sense. Stop denying that. That is my point.
 

millhouse

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1. No, I'm not. I get it. The scoops do something. I'm saying, the "something" is not good enough, from an OEM standpoint of a product offering that is to be tracked and/or suggested to track. You can tout the Boss 302 LS, Ford marketing the car as a track-capable car, and it doing fine. However, "fine" is not the case, as there were plenty of people that destroyed their MT82's on Boss', including the LS, on track due to heat issues and demanding warranty. At the time, if caused a lot of pissed off customer because some dealers were denying warranty due to track use, customers retorting with all the track marketing Ford put out, and Ford eventually folding and covering tracked Boss'.

Again, it does something. Yes, cool (pun there). And, yes, with the scoop and a quality fluid, you can run on track fairly hard and not have the transmission destroy itself. But there is a risk there, still, and is something an OEM should not look past in a car marketed for "track" (as Ford learned in the past).

2. From what I gather from your statements, "the Boss 302LS trans scoop was proven to work well," and your other statements about "critical zone" and "thermal fluid breakdown levels", you are saying that, the proof of working "well" is that a car no longer goes into limp mode. Am I right?

If so, what temperature does limp mode occur in relation to transmission temperature? I'm guessing somewhere around 270-280F.

How does this effect the components around and in the transmission at consistent, elevated temperatures?

Why do OEM's, with performance cars or not, set up their transmission fluid cooling systems to 170F-ish to 200F-ish? Why do race teams try to keep temperatures under 230F? It has something to do with the two words you are throwing around: "critical zone" and "thermal fluid break down".

Furthermore, when talking about fluids breaking down, you then need to consider the part that is associated with the fluid and what happens to the part, and it's parts, in specific, as temperature go outside of normal envelope of design. A deeper rabbit hole is looking at design limitations of a part's parts (in this case, the MT82). This is where the fact of this transmission, the MT82, not being designed for American sports car/muscle cars, in the first place, comes in.

Just because you aren't in limp mode doesn't mean everything is A-OK.

3. Both, actually, as one is related to the other conversation. It is a piece of evidence that supports the topic. If you don't see that, don't understand that, then I don't know what to tell you, but I can try:

Let's pull back from the names: Ford, Mustang, MT82, TR6060, etc. You have a car and two transmission options. Whether you race the car or drive it to the grocery store: one runs at a significantly higher fluid temperature than the other, sans coolers. This isn't information in support of a topic where one of those transmission should receive a cooling system of some sort, is what you're telling me?

People run the Tremec's without coolers and they are fine. They are able to stay around 210F on the track. Hell, the TR6060 in my Camaro has a hard time getting over 120F on a 90F commute to work. On track, on a 90F day, the thing won't break 195F all day long. Yes that's with a cooler, but if one of your points is the MT82 is superior in cooling, than how come the Tremec's don't run as hot with or without a cooler in every situation? My numbers aren't just mine - other people with other cars state the same. FYI, the external case design between the TR3160 and TR6060/T56/Magnum are extremely similar; that's where the tie-in is.



Look, the MT82 needs help and it needs it more than it's alternates. Stop denying that. To argue an OEM doesn't need to put a cooler on a "track" car with the MT82 doesn't make sense. Stop denying that. That is my point.
All of this talk to say that the PP2 should have come with a trans cooler...which I agree with (you obviously didn't read my previous posts). You could have saved some serious typeage.

As for the MT82 vs TR3160 trans temps, how quickly we forget about the GT350 lawsuit where the TR3160's were forcing the car into limp mode from overheating....hence the reason every GT350 now comes with a trans cooler.

My whole point, a simple $200 scoop, high quality oil and frequent fluid changes will cover 99% of peoples trans cooling needs. They work, and they work well. No, they won't work as well as an air to water cooler...but for most, they don't need to.
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