Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

w3rkn said:

How does one's consciously land on an Camaro..? It is because it is the cheapest handling car they can buy...?

:mullet:

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The 1LE might be. There is one close to me brand new $36,700 way below msrp. However if you can purchase a base gt for 29 grand its also a hack of a deal!

w3rkn said:

How does one's consciously land on an Camaro..? It is because it is the cheapest handling car they can buy...?

:mullet:

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Tastes vary. I like Mustangs. I like Camaros. Yes, I did work at GM for like, forever, so that would for certain lean me a little towards Camaro. But, during my time at GM I have owned 4 Mustangs, so there’s that.

So, pretending for a second that in late 2016 when I decided on what car to buy, I was being TOTALLY objective, here’s how I would have still landed on my Camaro Fifty 2SS Convertible.

APPEARANCE: Both look good. Very good. The Mustang coupe profile looks like it’s going fast while parked. The Camaro SS (and ZL1) grilles scream “get the hell out of my way” in your rear view mirror. What breaks the tie? I knew I was getting a convertible. When viewed in profile, the Camaro convertible looks more like the Camaro coupe than the Mustang convertible looks like the Mustang coupe. The Mustang coupe has a hot fastback look. The vert looks like a boring notchback.

PERFORMANCE: The 2017 SS Convertible outperforms the 2017 Stang GT in every measure, with the possible exception of top speed ( don’t remember what GT vert top speed is) which I will likely never care about. SS Vert has most of the extra coolers that SS coupe and 1LE get, so I can actually track it.

AMENITIES: HUD and no-stop drop top sealed the deal. Neither is available in Mustang.

OTHER INTANGIBLES: Mustang has more usable interior. Not that important, since this is a ME car, not a WE car.

Mountain376 said:

Because it’s a track car... no one should say anything otherwise. GM even says that: It’s not for people that want “the best of the best” and don’t intend to actually drive the car. It is a track car you can drive on the street. The ZL1 1LE is a different animal than the GT350 and GT350R... The SS 1LE and ZL1 and the cars to compare to those. :shrug:

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Completely agree, which is why people need to stop comparing it to any of Fords current offerings. It was built for one thing, to run fast at the ring/bragging rights.

martinjlm said:

Because GM strongly discourages it. I recall when the C6 ZR1 was announced. There were some dealers who were considering taking early deposits. GM came down as hard as it could without violating dealership agreements. I am not saying that this is what happened, but if you are a Chevy dealer would you thumb your nose and take deposits over MSRP and run the risk of not getting a high allotment of new Silverados (the REAL money makers)?

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If GM came out with a highly desireable car, there is nothing they could do to stop markups. This is purely a case of supply and demand. The SS1LE and ZL1 are made in higher volume and are simply not as desirable as the GT350/GT350R. That’s not to say they aren’t a good value (they are). People pay for exclusivity and uniqueness, and the 5.2 Voodoo engine and fantastic chassis of the GT350 offer that.

Mountain376 said:

2. You’re making an assumption with 1990’s technical capabilities in mind. For what I’m talking about doesn’t require significant sacrifices in driveability in respect to a daily-driven Street car. The engineering capability is there... you own an example. And you can’t throw, “well it cost more” as a defense, because the things that make your GT350 work, chassis and suspension wise, are available in cheaper cars, even the Mustang, itself now.

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I was assuming you wanted something more track focused like the ZL1 1LE.

Are you saying GM's engineers were working with 1990s technical capabilities when they designed the ZL1 1LE?

Hack said:

I was assuming you wanted something more track focused like the ZL1 1LE.

Are you saying GM's engineers were working with 1990s technical capabilities when they designed the ZL1 1LE?

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No.

Sooooo....did that comparison ever happen? My thread got waaaaay "off course."

Zing!

millhouse said:

Because the person I quoted was using MSRP and markups for the GT350R, not the GT350. And for track duty, a GT350 with comparable 1LE tires is still going to be ahead. As good as the MPSS and PS4 tires are, they still are no match for better track tires.

As for the ZL1 1LE, it's utter garbage for anything but track duty....and will drop in value like a rock (just like the Z28 did) once a faster version of the next gen comes out. Ford specialty vehicles do very well in value retention compared to GM's.

People can rip on the admin costs all they want, but people still pay it. GM guys absolutely HATE that Ford has vehicles that are so desirable that people are willing to pay more just to have it.

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so putting new tires on the way more expensive car it will be better on the track? I got a 1le for under 40k out the door, and i actually tried to get a pp2 when they were first announced and 4 different dealers kept dicking me around, you aren't touchinga gt350 for 40k so talking about putting new tires on it really means nothing to me. I'm sayinga 1le and a gt350 would be a match up that could go either way with the 1le being the cheaper value

PJR202 said:

Sooooo....did that comparison ever happen? My thread got waaaaay "off course."

Zing!

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Not yet. Likely wont see anything from any of the ragazines until 4th quarter this year at the earliest.

tyler2k said:

so putting new tires on the way more expensive car it will be better on the track? I got a 1le for under 40k out the door, and i actually tried to get a pp2 when they were first announced and 4 different dealers kept dicking me around, you aren't touchinga gt350 for 40k so talking about putting new tires on it really means nothing to me. I'm sayinga 1le and a gt350 would be a match up that could go either way with the 1le being the cheaper value

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I had to replace my GTPP1 tires at 15k miles due to normal wear. My cars performance is now better after changing tires. Tires are a wear item, let's not pretend that it's not something people are doing everyday on these vehicles. Your 1LE is only a "match" until the GT350 owner decides to replace his tires. Your tires are far more track oriented than the MPSS that come with the GT350. If you want to feel better about being able to keep up with a GT350 that has inferior tires for track duty, good for you. Those GT350R owners who take off their race compound wheels and tires have no less of a car just because they decided to run street tires. Just because your car might be able to keep up with a GT350R on some cheap tires does not mean you have an equal car.

Listen, the 1LE is a great value…there is no arguing that. But the GT350 is not about value, it never was. When I pass a 1LE on the road, I don’t give it more than a glance. When I pass a GT350, I roll down my windows hoping to hear the exhaust. I’ll rubber neck the hell out of the GT350. People happily pay for that uniqueness.

millhouse said:

I had to replace my GTPP1 tires at 15k miles due to normal wear. My cars performance is now better after changing tires. Tires are a wear item, let's not pretend that it's not something people are doing everyday on these vehicles. Your 1LE is only a "match" until the GT350 owner decides to replace his tires. Your tires are far more track oriented than the MPSS that come with the GT350. If you want to feel better about being able to keep up with a GT350 that has inferior tires for track duty, good for you. Those GT350R owners who take off their race compound wheels and tires have no less of a car just because they decided to run street tires. Just because your car might be able to keep up with a GT350R on some cheap tires does not mean you have an equal car.

Listen, the 1LE is a great value…there is no arguing that. But the GT350 is not about value, it never was. When I pass a 1LE on the road, I don’t give it more than a glance. When I pass a GT350, I roll down my windows hoping to hear the exhaust. I’ll rubber neck the hell out of the GT350. People happily pay for that uniqueness.

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People talk this way about the GT350 and the Voodoo motor. I agree it's a great motor, but it really is similar in character to the Coyote (and the old Ford V6 that has been discontinued). Voodoo is just a hot rodded Coyote. The Coyote is also an amazing engine and with the latest improvements it is closer than ever to the Voodoo.

And that to me is a big difference between the Mustang and the Camaro. The character of the engine in the Mustang is just more sporty and fun. I'm looking forward to the comparisons of the 1LE and the Mustang GT PP2 when they come out, but I have driven the Camaro and Mustang and I know which power plant I prefer.

^^^ This. The Coyote and Voodoo urge you to rev it. The LT1 obliges. I've driven the 6th gen Camaro a few times and the C7 with that engine, and it's fast, without doubt, but was definitely not as exciting in a straight line. It's both the power delivery and the sound.

Hack said:

People talk this way about the GT350 and the Voodoo motor. I agree it's a great motor, but it really is similar in character to the Coyote (and the old Ford V6 that has been discontinued). Voodoo is just a hot rodded Coyote. The Coyote is also an amazing engine and with the latest improvements it is closer than ever to the Voodoo.

And that to me is a big difference between the Mustang and the Camaro. The character of the engine in the Mustang is just more sporty and fun. I'm looking forward to the comparisons of the 1LE and the Mustang GT PP2 when they come out, but I have driven the Camaro and Mustang and I know which power plant I prefer.

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No doubt, it’s a coyote on steroids. That’s the thing though, you will never get a coyote to sound like the voodoo….and you can never get a GT to look like a GT350. The 1LE and GT PP2 are comparable (with the 1LE being better optioned). They have the same engine as their base counterparts and can be mimicked with upgraded components.

I agree with you though, the high revving nature and powerband of the coyote is what drew me to it. My 408W in my 95GT was blazingly fast as was my twin turbo 89 notchback, but there is just something different when you’re pushing these cars to and past 7000RPM that lights a fire under my ass. Don’t get me wrong, I love low end torque…but the Coyote just demands you to be in the correct gear. Instead of lazily punching it at 2500 RPM, I simply downshift and then punch it. In all reality, it keeps me more engaged.

BmacIL said:

^^^ This. The Coyote and Voodoo urge you to rev it. The LT1 obliges. I've driven the 6th gen Camaro a few times and the C7 with that engine, and it's fast, without doubt, but was definitely not as exciting in a straight line. It's both the power delivery and the sound.

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To each their own, but in the most neutral mindset, I fail to see your opinion as an honest one and more Mustang fan-based.

Don’t get me wrong: Im a fan of RPM and absolutely love the fact that the Coyotes ring out to 7-7.5k (depending on generation). A V8 at high RPM? That’s sweet music to my ears. In that, I can empathise with you guys. In fact, my one gripe with the LT1 is I wish it was give a 7k redline. In the same, I understand why GM doesn’t. Nevertheless, to say the LT1 is (“without a doubt”) not exciting ? I whole-heartedly disagree. Torque is always fun, lol!

The 5.0L is a sweatheart of an engine, too. And fun in it’s own right blasting from mid-RPM to 7k+!

Both are great fun - they just produce thrills in different ways:cheers:

Mountain376 said:

To each their own, but in the most neutral mindset, I fail to see your opinion as an honest one and more Mustang fan-based.

Don’t get me wrong: Im a fan of RPM and absolutely love the fact that the Coyotes ring out to 7-7.5k (depending on generation). A V8 at high RPM? That’s sweet music to my ears. In that, I can empathise with you guys. In fact, my one gripe with the LT1 is I wish it was give a 7k redline. In the same, I understand why GM doesn’t. Nevertheless, to say the LT1 is (“without a doubt”) not exciting ? I whole-heartedly disagree. Torque is always fun, lol!

The 5.0L is a sweatheart of an engine, too. And fun in it’s own right blasting from mid-RPM to 7k+!

Both are great fun - they just produce thrills in different ways:cheers:

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I stated an opinion. It can be neither honest or dishonest. :doh:. Torque is fun but if it doesn't feel like it wants to keep going as you're climbing in revs, it softens the experience, for me. As you correctly stated, both are fun, and thrill in different ways. My hot button is clearly different

While I am obviously a Mustang fan, I was, for instance, floored with how much I loved the ATS-V. That was very exciting to drive despite being similar/slower to my car in a straight line. It's also a car that, because of it's feel and handling, I was confident to push immediately. I drove that right after I drove the most recent time I drove a '17 Camaro SS.

I'd love a fresh tomato sandwich right now.