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2018 GT vs 2016 Camaro - Track Times Compared w/Video

millhouse

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Haha did i offend you from one engineer to another? Don’t think people are stupid and have to believe whatever you guys write on this forum. You ordered an 18 mustang in Germany! Go figure!
As another engineer...it's absurd to make assumptions on incomplete data, such as your previous "high speed stability" comment.
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Baron95

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Well, at least we admit we lost and say wait until the fair competition comes out...
No one "lost". The Mustang GT has many great attributes (interior, sound, looks, etc).

We are simply talking about the 1LE handling vs the Mustang GT handling. On that criteria, somehow the Camaro seems to be an universe apart from the Mustang. Nothing more, nothing less. Not the end of the world, probably not even that important for the majority of buyers.

For buyers like me, who want a drive to track, track, drive back car, in the ˜$40-45K range, it is disappointing that Ford could not come up with a competitive alternative.

I like the PP2 concept. I hope it closes the gap, but I don't think Ford can do it without making it hard to live with on the street. The 1LE package has nearly no downside. It rides well street and track. Is not unduly harsh (unlike the ZL1-1LE). It is all around a good upgrade.

The PP2 wil lstill have sliding brake pistons rear. It will have no HUD, no available Performance Data Recorder, no power Recaros, no available cooled/heated recaros like the (2SS-1LE). It will be too harsh (given the published spring rates) and too low (scraping) and have tires that are a nightmare in the rain.

Overall just seriously disappointed from Ford. Even their halo GT350 can't keep up with the 1LE.
 

Baron95

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As another engineer...it's absurd to make assumptions on incomplete data, such as your previous "high speed stability" comment.
That is not an assumption. That is an opinion. Which I'm fairly confident will be true.

One of things is true: The Mustang GT has a lot more power than the Camaro (unlikely, but great if true) or the Camaro has more downforce (or less lift if you will) than the Mustang. There is no other explanation.

And we KNOW for sure that the PP2 spoiler, which looks like a copy of the 1LE spoiler has more downforce (Ford told us that).

So, I think it is a very safe assumption my opinion is likely true.
 

millhouse

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We are simply talking about the 1LE handling vs the Mustang GT handling. On that criteria, somehow the Camaro seems to be an universe apart from the Mustang. Nothing more, nothing less. Not the end of the world, probably not even that important for the majority of buyers.
Except, it's not! Giving similar tire compounds and widths (GTPP1 to base SS), they perform very similarly.

That is not an assumption. That is an opinion. Which I'm fairly confident will be true.

One of things is true: The Mustang GT has a lot more power than the Camaro (unlikely, but great if true) or the Camaro has more downforce (or less lift if you will) than the Mustang. There is no other explanation.

And we KNOW for sure that the PP2 spoiler, which looks like a copy of the 1LE spoiler has more downforce (Ford told us that).

So, I think it is a very safe assumption my opinion is likely true.
It was most certainly stated as an assumption. You stated...

"P.S. Whenever you have 2 similarly sized vehicles with similar CDs and near identical HP, where one of them pulls away at high speed (>120MPH) be very, very, very worried. That is a serious indication that the car that pulls ahead at high speed has lift and is less safe. I actually take the standing mile performance as a loss for the Mustang - not a win. I can almost guarantee based on those results that the Camaro is more stable at 150MPH than the Mustang. Throw a turn into the mix at those speeds and I'm not sure you'd want to be in Mustang."

You ignore all other data that could contribute to the mustangs better high end performance (wider powerband, higher horsepower, difference in gearing etc.) and attempt to scare the readers. You then turn the mustangs high end ability and attempt to turn it into a fail...quite absurd really.

In all reality, you have no idea what the high speed stability is for either car. Stop with the total bullshit...you're making yourself look worse and worse with each post.

For the record, you might want to brush up on the definition between opinions and assumptions...

http://infotrac.thomsonlearning.com/infowrite/wr_facts.html

Your opinion could be that the mustang looks better than the camaro. Your assumption was that (Based on your misguided and incomplete information) the mustang will be unstable at high speeds.
 

jake_zx2

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No one "lost". The Mustang GT has many great attributes (interior, sound, looks, etc). The mustang lost the compare, That's what I'm referring to

We are simply talking about the 1LE handling vs the Mustang GT handling. On that criteria, somehow the Camaro seems to be an universe apart from the Mustang. Nothing more, nothing less. Not the end of the world, probably not even that important for the majority of buyers. Agreed, I'm simply saying that the gap will be closed when placed up against it's TRUE competitor

For buyers like me, who want a drive to track, track, drive back car, in the ˜$40-45K range, it is disappointing that Ford could not come up with a competitive alternative. They do have a competitive alternative, it's the PP2

I like the PP2 concept. I hope it closes the gap, but I don't think Ford can do it without making it hard to live with on the street. The 1LE package has nearly no downside. It rides well street and track. Is not unduly harsh (unlike the ZL1-1LE). It is all around a good upgrade. I see it being a little rough, but no worse than the 1LE... That comes with the concept of it being more of a sports car than a grand tourer

The PP2 wil lstill have sliding brake pistons rear. It will have no HUD, no available Performance Data Recorder, no power Recaros, no available cooled/heated recaros like the (2SS-1LE). It will be too harsh (given the published spring rates) and too low (scraping) and have tires that are a nightmare in the rain. Honestly, I'm disappointed that Ford still used the sliding calipers for the rear. It does have a data recorder though, it has recaros, I believe you can spec it with the standard 401A seats, which are heated and cooled. harshness, ride height, and tires are all comparable to the 1LE. Have you driven one? It has all the downsides that you just listed

Overall just seriously disappointed from Ford. Even their halo GT350 can't keep up with the 1LE.
GT350 will even be surpassed by PP2, it will probably come near GT350R times just like the 1LE does

That is not an assumption. That is an opinion. Which I'm fairly confident will be true. I doubt it, ford went to work reducing front end lift on this car. Reporters note a night and day difference in high speed hood movement from 2017 to 2018

One of things is true: The Mustang GT has a lot more power than the Camaro (unlikely, but great if true) or the Camaro has more downforce (or less lift if you will) than the Mustang. There is no other explanation. or it just has a more linear high RPM power range and better gearing. I'd guess it's both that and the camaro experiences more drag... Just look at how blunt the front end is compared to the mustang
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02gtnh

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It was said in the press release, PP2 is actually the ONLY way to get cloth Recaros in a 2018 because it comes standard with them (a lot of people prefer the cloth ones to the leather ones for track use... if that doesn't tell you the intentions of the car). But I may have interpreted it wrong. It read to me that cloth Recaros are standard, and you could opt for leather, but after rereading it, it seems that it might still be an additional charge. I guess time will tell...

"Customers who opt for Performance Pack Level 2 have a unique opportunity to select Recaro® seats in either leather or cloth to help stay firmly planted while cornering"

http://performance.ford.com/enthusiasts/media-room/2017/10/mustang-gt-performance-pack-2.html
Just says they can opt for either, but not that its part of package. One guy just got his PP2 and said he didn't get the recaros.
 

jake_zx2

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Just says they can opt for either, but not that its part of package. One guy just got his PP2 and said he didn't get the recaros.
Oh, someone already got their PP2?? dang, I thought they weren't coming until March! But that makes sense, consider me corrected!
 

ALUSA

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As another engineer...it's absurd to make assumptions on incomplete data, such as your previous "high speed stability" comment.
How can you base your decision on just for roll racing or standing mile? Does that really sound more logical to you? I mean come on!
 

millhouse

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How can you base your decision on just for roll racing or standing mile? Does that really sound more logical to you? I mean come on!
People make decisions based off of individual data points. If someone wants the fastest highway cruiser...it appears the mustang has the edge. Stoplight to stoplight (in manual form) the camaro has the edge. 1/4 mile is a draw. Around a track it's all 1LE.
 

Baron95

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How about this....How about we forget about the Camaro 1LE for a minute here.

Lets compare the 2018 Mustang GT PP1 just tested with the previous circa 2015 Mustang GT PP.

Ford added a good amount of power. Ford added better tires (the marvelous Pilot 4S, which I love). Ford added MagnaRide. Ford retuned springs and shocks. Ford added bracing to the chassis. Ford improved the aerodynamics including putting a "wing" in back.

So, with all those add ons, the 2018 is LESS THAN 1/3 OF A SEC faster than the previous gen around Willows!!!! (And still slower than the non-1LE SS by nearly a second).

yeah, yeah, yea, different day and all, but if you are not underwhelmed by how little improvement there they achieved with all that new expensive hardware, if must have really low expectations.
 

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How about this....How about we forget about the Camaro 1LE for a minute here.

Lets compare the 2018 Mustang GT PP1 just tested with the previous circa 2015 Mustang GT PP.

Ford added a good amount of power. Ford added better tires (the marvelous Pilot 4S, which I love). Ford added MagnaRide. Ford retuned springs and shocks. Ford added bracing to the chassis. Ford improved the aerodynamics including putting a "wing" in back.

So, with all those add ons, the 2018 is LESS THAN 1/3 OF A SEC faster than the previous gen around Willows!!!! (And still slower than the non-1LE SS by nearly a second).

yeah, yeah, yea, different day and all, but if you are not underwhelmed by how little improvement there they achieved with all that new expensive hardware, if must have really low expectations.
The chassis it rides on is just not as good as the Alpha. Also in the video they say while they both have the same Mag Ride they 1LE was just tuned much better.
 

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How about this....How about we forget about the Camaro 1LE for a minute here.

Lets compare the 2018 Mustang GT PP1 just tested with the previous circa 2015 Mustang GT PP.

Ford added a good amount of power. Ford added better tires (the marvelous Pilot 4S, which I love). Ford added MagnaRide. Ford retuned springs and shocks. Ford added bracing to the chassis. Ford improved the aerodynamics including putting a "wing" in back.

So, with all those add ons, the 2018 is LESS THAN 1/3 OF A SEC faster than the previous gen around Willows!!!! (And still slower than the non-1LE SS by nearly a second).

yeah, yeah, yea, different day and all, but if you are not underwhelmed by how little improvement there they achieved with all that new expensive hardware, if must have really low expectations.
Totally agree with this and how it could have such little impact being a valid question.
 

jake_zx2

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Yeah, I honestly am surprised how they shaved so little off the 2017 time. Hell, the reporter at MM&FF reported that he was consistently within 1 second of the times in his personal GT350 every lap at VIR, and that was even without magride. How did they manage to shave so little time off when the car should perform close to a base GT350??
 

Baron95

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Yeah, I honestly am surprised how they shaved so little off the 2017 time. Hell, the reporter at MM&FF reported that he was consistently within 1 second of the times in his personal GT350 every lap at VIR, and that was even without magride. How did they manage to shave so little time off when the car should perform close to a base GT350??
Because the base (non R) GT350 is likely 2 seconds off the pace of an SS-1LE. So being within a second of the GT350 puts you 3 seconds behind the SS-1LE. It is all very consistent.
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