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How bad did ford Sandbag the Ecoboost?

Glenn G

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According to my former Engineering professor, alot! I grabbed my stock parts out of the basement and headed to his house for some beers and BBQ (rained out unfortunately so we got some pizza) and Had a look at some things in the garage.

First is the much maligned intercooler. The Stock unit in his exact words "Cheap garbage but at least it's Cheap!"
My phone did not capture the IC well as the light was dim but I did mangage to find some images online that were perfect.



His notes.
"Far too small and light for a gasoline turbo application, might be ok on a Small Diesel, No where near enough thermal mass, Tube and fin is terrible for Air to Air applications, but it's cheaper to manufacture."

So we pulled the end tanks off, Not hard by the way and he mused, "I'll give those 5 years before they leak."


"Terrible flow, the Air has to make a sharp 90 degree turn here, creating a high pressure area blocking flow, the volume and design of the endtanks do not provide adequate flow to the top, the botom 3rd is doing the most work here. Plastic is a good insulator so will not provide any real thermal mass either."



"Nearly half of the area is blocked, fin density and surface area are minuscule, the only advantage is strength for weight here, It's like they used a design for a water to air heat exchanger and built it out of aluminum. This is a major restriction, and one that does not provide an airspeed increase like a venturi."

We talked about the detrimental effects on an engine and he said, "if you were sitting in traffic for like 10 minutes on a warm day, the road opened up and you were to give it gas, this would actually heat up your air charge and could cause DET if you had low quality fuel, I donā€™t think you could pull timing fast enough".
I told him about the blown motors on this forum and he asked me how many had stock intercoolers. As far as I'm aware no engines have blown with upgraded ones! His exact words ā€œI would expect a cooler of this size and design to support 250 hp at relatively low boost. At 310 and 18 psi on a small turbine like this, this is a danger to the engineā€.
ā€œThe Primary concern developing this part was cost, nothing else, not even performance. The thing that really jumps are the end tanks, unless they are used in something else that is highly space limited, they could have been designed much better at no additional cost or complexity to manufacture. I bet Ford produces these at around $10-12 a unit, they could have made it much better at 0 cost unless they had tons of these cores and end tanks lying around,ā€ (as far as I can tell this intercooler is Mustang specific) and the could have nearly doubled the efficiency by spending 25 cents a car more, but that is a bean counter issue, well over $1million in profits over the lifespan of the car. The only way this passed hot weather certification was by avoiding boost.ā€
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Glenn G

Glenn G

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The second thing he noted was the turbo is too small for an engine this size, ā€œ2.3 liters at WOT and high RPM, this turbo will be too far off of its efficiency Island to make good power, It just doesnā€™t have the flow, It will overboost in the mid-range and be putting out lots of heat at the top, a bit more turbo would not hurt reaction time much, a few hundred rpm at most but the benefits in all around efficiency and power would be well worth it, the choked up turbo combined with the junk intercooler, means you need a pretty aggressive anti knock strategy to protect the engine Seeing as these are specific to the platform, it would have been a no cost option to size this turbo appropriately, this is deliberate, when I was working at (he asked me not to say but it was a Global Manufacturer with a division in Germany) we would be forced by management to use a more expensive, smaller turbo to keep a predefined distance from a larger motor. One of the reasons I left was having a beancounter tell me my engine was making too much power, make me redesign and de tune it to run like garbage and complain when I went overbudget .ā€
 
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Glenn G

Glenn G

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Interestingly enough, the part he found most laughable was the downpipe.
ā€œI know this well, when we had to make a crap turbo not overboost or were forced to run a larger setup because they were already in place weā€™d mess with the downpipe. It doesnā€™t cost much to do and we felt ok because any car guy with a welder could make his own plus you can actually get some emissions benefits by using an oversized cat and slowing down the exhaust flowā€
ā€œ1st no need to neck down the turbine outlet from 3 inches to 2.5, From a manufacturing perspective the cost in negligible, It helps the turbo spin up a bit faster which is nice and helps maintain some post turbine back pressure which will limit boost if you donā€™t have enough wastegate.ā€
20151207_181215_zpsna0amwwr.jpg

ā€œWith no clearance problems, there is no need for an ā€˜Sā€™ here, those extra bends take time and material which adds cost. It will slow down the exhaust before the cat which is good for emissions. The top of the cat is good, the smooth transition tries to evenly spread the exhaust gas over the full area.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/gman-r33/General%20stuff/20151207_181157_zpshxhe56n7.jpg[/IMG]

ā€œA big fat Cat slows down the car nicely as well as allowing you to use a cheaper substrate like ceraminc, the end is nearly flat, promoting a high pressure area that keeps gas in the cat longer,
20151207_181147_zpsd5lcuwix.jpg
 
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tcman54

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Yep, all us ecoboost owners wish we had a bigger turbo and bigger intercooler, until I get the money I will just make do with what I got.

Terry
 

BmacIL

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Can't say I'm surprised. The very interesting part is that with an upgraded FMIC and slightly bigger turbo, you'd end up with an overall more reliable package than stock, at similar boost levels, while making more power.
 

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(he asked me not to say but it was a Global Manufacturer with a division in Germany) .ā€
Uh oh, you gave clues as to who the manufacturer is!

Great write up Glen. I traded my EB in for a GT and couldn't be happier. But, the EB in stock form wasn't bad at all and had plenty of power for the streets.

Stop light to stop light it wasn't that big of a dif.. just to redline the GT will shine. I didn't have any problems with heat but then again my EB was stock. Didn't want to upgrade and then have failures without a warranty.

EB was def. fun and I do miss the 26.4 mpg avg
 

neodark

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Pretty sure there have been failures with upgraded ICs, not sure which ones. Nice pictures though!

The OME IC is shit, definitely. And I also wish we had a bit bigger turbo, less crazy torque spike to bend rods.
 

stang77

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Great write up Glen. His comments about the intercooler don't surprise me one bit.
 

Rca4697

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Nice write up. But I'd have to say unless you pay the $$$ for like an AMG or an M3 vehicle , you'd stuck with these kind of parts. This is why for the ecoboost (turbo cars) there is an aftermarket division. There is always something better. To me, thru time, parts will wear and tear thus the need for upgrading parts. Yet still I would not use that as an excuse to trade up to a GT. Who knows, maybe the GT has similar problems with their radiators or other parts. There is always some better parts to replace to your car. Just my 2 cents.
 

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Glenn G

Glenn G

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Thanks guys, not done yet. There is alot more. I recorded our whole conversation and it takes me alot of time to write down the important bits. The take away from the conversation was not that the Eco would be faster than the GT if they didn't sand bag it, It would not be, nor the cheap parts. It's that Ford actually spent money to slow it down to maintain that 125 hp advantage. It would be nowhere near that otherwise.
 

Stangman21

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Thanks guys, not done yet. There is alot more. I recorded our whole conversation and it takes me alot of time to write down the important bits. The take away from the conversation was not that the Eco would be faster than the GT if they didn't sand bag it, It would not be, nor the cheap parts. It's that Ford actually spent money to slow it down to maintain that 125 hp advantage. It would be nowhere near that otherwise.
Sounds about right. Considering it's for a different set of buyers but still holds the Mustang name for it's "legitness". ie. iPhone 6s and iPhone SE.

I'm still happy with my Ecoboost. But now you've completely sold me on upgrading my FMIC and downpipe the very least! Thanks for the insight and I'll be looking for more what your friend says (former General Manufacturer)
 

v8440

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Why not simply lower factory boost and avoid spending the money to slow it down?
 

marjen

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Would like to know what he thinks of some of the third party intercoolers that fit in the stock location, such as mishi, map and cp-e? DO they suffer some of the same limitations?
 
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Glenn G

Glenn G

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Why not simply lower factory boost and avoid spending the money to slow it down?
They did, that's why the stock tune is so bad and the stock wastegate spring is so weak. If you tried to reduce it further you would have very erratic boost and major drivability problems. Limiting exhaust flow lowers the boost nicely without the part throttle drivability.

I learned that in his class!

It's also why you get so much power out of just a tune.
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