Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

BmacIL said:

It's impressive how wrong you are (and the defense of it), also. You can either defend your ignorance or maybe listen to people who do have the knowledge, experience and education to present facts that don't jive with your perception of reality. Ford absolutely, 100% for certain went through that process (which I dumbed down), but decided against adding coolers. They did it for a reason (cost and/or plant complexity, most likely). Whether their judgment is correct, we will see, but this whole thing was started by R&T correctly stating that if you want a turnkey track car for under $50k, you're better off with the Chevrolet. For performance and lap after lap reliability, they're almost certainly right.

Enjoy your (not track) car, though.

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$50,000 turn key track car...

How many of those are there again..? And if you are spending that amount, does it come with harnessing, helmet, and other stuff..?

Are you saying those who buy a Gen3 Coyote & MT82 need the same cooling as voodoo & tremec..?


Or that Mustangs don't offer a viable aftermarket solution..? What exactly is there to bitch about... I see several solution for reasonable prices.

You forgot the roll cage...:headbonk:

w3rkn said:

$50,000 turn key track car...

How many of those are there again..? And if you are spending that amount, does it come with harnessing, helmet, and other stuff..?

Are you saying those who buy a Gen3 Coyote & MT82 need the same cooling as voodoo & tremec..?


Or that Mustangs don't offer a viable aftermarket solution..? What exactly is there to bitch about... I see several solution for reasonable prices.

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*Track day/HPDE car

BmacIL said:

It's impressive how wrong you are (and the defense of it), also. You can either defend your ignorance or maybe listen to people who do have the knowledge, experience and education to present facts that don't jive with your perception of reality. Ford absolutely, 100% for certain went through that process (which I dumbed down), but decided against adding coolers. They did it for a reason (cost and/or plant complexity, most likely). Whether their judgment is correct, we will see, but this whole thing was started by R&T correctly stating that if you want a turnkey track car for under $50k, you're better off with the Chevrolet. For performance and lap after lap reliability, they're almost certainly right.

Enjoy your (not track) car, though.

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Sorry, but I'm not a follower. You start presenting facts that align with reality, and I'll start listening. You yourself admit there's a flaw in your development process. "What's unclear is why they let Tech Pack 2.0 happen". As the answer for that isn't covered in your process, there is something missing. Can you understand that?

But you keep bitching away, and preaching to the followers, and maybe Ford will add coolers to the PP2.

For the record, there are at least two PP2 owners tracking in Texas in the summer, and neither has had issues yet.

But you keep bitching.

Ed M said:

You forgot the roll cage...:headbonk:

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For a DD occasional track car putting in a cage is more likely to kill you then none at all. BTW I'm talking a real cage, not 'my little janey' 3/4 pointers.

Oh you mean you never considered the idea that an executive will just arbitrarily decide something for the sake of what they want, don't want, or cost? :headbonk:

Also the process I outlined, though did not spell out for you completely, is called product development. Any company that makes any end-user product does this, tailored to their business and products. A basic guide:
http://www.innovationcoach.com/2013/05/8-step-process-perfects-product-development/

BmacIL said:

Oh you mean you never considered the idea that an executive will just arbitrarily decide something for the sake of what they want, don't want, or cost? :headbonk:

Also the process I outlined, though did not spell out for you completely, is called product development. Any company that makes any end-user product does this, tailored to their business and products. A basic guide:
http://www.innovationcoach.com/2013/05/8-step-process-perfects-product-development/

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How could i, that wasn't part of your class, and me know nuffin.

mustang1 said:

1LE seems to be a better value at MSRP 45k. Tremec, coolers, eLSD, front & rear Brembos. I like the base Mustang seats so the Recaros is an unknown.

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You forgot PDR. I agree after instructing in a 1LE on track even though I like the visibility out of 2018 mustang I test drove better. The base Mustang seats are better than C5/6 seats, but I like the Recaros in the Camaro much better. Heck I'd take a $41k SS Camaro with just mag ride and Recaros as options with standard trans/diff cooler, then put wider ZL1 1LE size wheels/tires on for around the same price as a PP2 and beat it around the track. Not trying to bash the PP2 as initially I was excited, but now that the cloth Recaros are optional and they aren't making coolers standard it's not even competitive in autocross (which is all it's good at in the heat IMHO) as it's in the same class as the GT350 which isn't a podium finisher and still gets beat by a C5Z if you're not needing a back seat or warranty which will overheat in the summer like a PP2 when pushed hard as it didn't have coolers either while running a similar lap time with square 315 Rivals.

You guys are taking this way too serious. All I know is I took a 35 mph offramp this evening in track mode in 3rd gear at 80 mph with just the slightest bit of understeer, and it was a blast. And, this was on a much less forgiving tire than the SC2's. The car's first TNIA will be 9/20, and I'm certainly looking forward to it. I'll definitely be in the novice class just getting a feel for the girl. If I can get five hard laps in between several pace laps each session, that's all I'm looking for. I would guess out of the first 100K miles, over 99K of those miles will be driven on the street. If I'm slower than even a regular Camaro SS on the track, I'll point him by and keep on keeping on. I could really care less. Isn't it really just about having a little fun and enjoying yourself? And personally, I know I'll be happier in the Mustang for those 99K+ miles than I would have been in the Camaro. I test drove an '18 SS 1LE for an afternoon before I ordered my Mustang. And, I've driven my daughter's 5th gen Camaro plenty before I handed it over to her. For $38,750, this 301A PP2 Mustang offers a lot of value as far as I'm concerned, and is still my first choice. So far, I wouldn't change a thing.

So, just for fun, what would it have cost Ford to put in the coolers, and what kind of price increase would the PP2 have seen? Some people cannot afford the GT350, but don't want to get passed on the track in their Mustang, by a Kia.

2018OFPP1?2 said:

Rules are for leveling the playing field, and I'm not competing against anyone :cheers:

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Of course. But let's look a little deeper. In the case of tire treadwear rules, they can also be used as a rough indication of how serious an OE mfr is getting about providing "track-level" performance. Or it could be an indication that he maybe had to work a little harder than anticipated to meet some design bogey. As an "outsider" who'd put the PP2 on a short list, I'd hope it was for the first reason while being wary that it might have been for the second.

There's nothing wrong with being brand-loyal, model-loyal, or trim-loyal - until it gets in the way of understanding that it's exactly the same vehicle dynamics concepts at work, just further up on the performance scale in the case of cars such as the GT/PP2 and SS/1LE. Perhaps when you've been an engineer long enough, you just naturally think more in terms of "this car has very good performance and happens to be a "make/model/trim X" rather than "this car delivers very good performance because it's an X".


Norm

RE: post #161

If I was an engineer, doing analysis on the product, that would definitely be a problem. But I'm a consumer, who bought the product, because it fit my current needs, and I like the product. If I later find the product doesn't fit my needs, I'll modify the product, or get a different product. Until then, I'm going to relate my real life experiences with the product to others who may be interested in the product. In the interest of others who may be interested in the product, I will also question and disagree with statements about the product that don't align with my real life experience with the product, or published facts about the product. If the product doesn't fit the needs of others, my advice to them is to modify the product, or find a product that is more suitable to their needs.
Endless conjecture as to the manufacturer's intent for the product, especially in opposition to the manufacturer's stated intent for the product, seems futile at best, and makes one wonder what might the real agenda of that conjecture be, given that there is no physical evidence to date, to support that there is an issue with conjecturer's desired use of the manufacturer's product.

RE: post #159

Gotta love this car!

WildHorse said:

Thermowrap the exhaust closest to the diff and run full synthetic. Problem solved(ish).

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Like I said waaaaaay back on page one. Especially if your using a aftermarket catback, LT's, cat deletes, or any combination as this will make your pipes alot hotter.

JD_GTPP2 said:

If my dead PP2 is somehow miraculously resurrected after its engine failure I plan to go this route as a starting point before the car ever sees the track. If that doesn't work, the folks at Full Tilt Boogie Racing have a differential cooling kit, while MMR sells an oil cooling kit

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Will the Full Tilt Boogie differential cooling kit work on a GT350?