Warranty and a Catch Can?

ElAviator72 said:

Just an FYI on catch cans:

One of the major tuners (you've seen their name in this forum, and they're not an individual, and happen to be geographically close to Ford), doesn't recommend them until the engine is older and well broken in, unless you're doing something like tracking the car.

This particular tuner takes the stance that catch cans interfere with the proper lubrication of the rather hard rings and valve guides of the 2.3 ecoboost engine during the break in process...

Back to our regularly scheduled forums

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Is it the same tuner that now sells a Catch Can? See item description:

"our new XXXXXXX Catch-Can addresses a problem with late model vehicles: The factory PCV system ensures proper venting but allows the engine to consume oil. Our Catch-Can dramatically reduces this and many issues associated: Detonation, low oil levels, and oil buildup. Designed, and manufactured 100% In-House at our Dearborn Heights, MI facility, you can be assured it reflects the performance and quality that our Windstorm line of products has become known for!"
:ford:

Maggneto said:

The engine was designed without a catch can for a reason.

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The reason has nothing to do with "don't put one on".



It's hard enough to get people to do the regular maintenance on their car. Oil change for example, how many people just keep driving and sludging up the engine?



A catch can is one more piece of maintenance. It has to be emptied regularly or it doesn't work; the system gets plugged up or oil from the can is pulled in and burned off in greater quantities. Since the manufacturer has an easy "fix" by routing the vapors into the intake and no maintenance required of an owner, that is what they do. The EPA is happy and no fines assessed to the manufacturer for putting stuff in excess of standards into the air.

I have used catch cans on my prior supercharged & modified Mustangs. For my 2018 I4, i chose to leave the car bone stock. This would elude to not using a catch can. Its still about preference. A catch can is an after market modification as we all are aware. My modified cars were not serviced by Ford but by a reputable speed shop, that installed my superchargers & tuned the cars. I had dual catch cans on them. Different generation car , of course. This is a preference mod that seems small in terms of its cost. If you feel its needed, its your choice to install it. Just my nickel on this. I would say two cents, but there has been inflation over the years.:cheers:

Wow. Talk about painting with a broad brush. You don't even understand how the warranty works. They don't "void" it.. they simply deny coverage on that particular part IF there is proof to do so. I suggest you read up on the protections and rights as consumers in regards to warranty issues. Many people inuding myself have had warranty work done on modified cars. Your generalization and fear mongering isn't justified.

lizardrko said:

If the dealer sees anything aftermarket part on the motor, they can and will blame an engine issue on that part. Even if its common sense that the part added cannot cause the specific failure, they will still void ur warranty. They hold all the cards, sure they have to prove it caused the failure according to the law, but they will only try to prove it to your lawyer, not you.



Plus, catch cans are only possibly useful in a racing environment, for daily driving, dont take the risk by having one. If you must have one, remove it before doing dealer work if its plug and play.

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jrock said:

Is it the same tuner that now sells a Catch Can? See item description:

"our new XXXXXXX Catch-Can addresses a problem with late model vehicles: The factory PCV system ensures proper venting but allows the engine to consume oil. Our Catch-Can dramatically reduces this and many issues associated: Detonation, low oil levels, and oil buildup. Designed, and manufactured 100% In-House at our Dearborn Heights, MI facility, you can be assured it reflects the performance and quality that our Windstorm line of products has become known for!"
:ford:

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Nah, just checked the website of the tuner in question, plus their Mustang6g forum area. Not them ;)

grabber yote said:

Wow. Talk about painting with a broad brush. You don't even understand how the warranty works. They don't "void" it.. they simply deny coverage on that particular part IF there is proof to do so. I suggest you read up on the protections and rights as consumers in regards to warranty issues. Many people inuding myself have had warranty work done on modified cars. Your generalization and fear mongering isn't justified.

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Okay when I meant "void", thats what I meant, they will void your warranty on that part/system. I didnt mean it as oh I have a suspension issue and they are denying me because of my intake. They will fix the suspension issue in that case.



What im saying is if you take your car to the wrong dealer and they dont word the issue correctly to ford and you get your warranty denied, it doesnt matter how much you argue or bombard them with common car knowledge, they can still say no. Then you need to get a lawyer, which costs money. Even if you go to another dealer, Ford itself is already aware of your situation. The best thing is to go to a good dealer from the start that is actually knowledgeable and knows about the aftermarket world.

ElAviator72 said:

Nah, just checked the website of the tuner in question, plus their Mustang6g forum area. Not them ;)

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My bad, I thought you could have been talking about these guys:

https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP453901

jrock said:

My bad, I thought you could have been talking about these guys:

https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP453901

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Actually, I was. How'd I miss that announcement? :frusty:

grabber yote said:

If a catch can causes an engine failure then there are other bigger issues to address. Also installing the correct catch can based on forced induction or NA is also important. The reputable name brand catch cans that are plug and play are the only ones I would use. Some even use factory hard lines and fittings.

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It's not necessarily the addition of a catch can that can cause issues, it's the installation. Who is doing the installation? Did they follow the installation instructions correctly? There is also the issue of quality control of parts. There was a recent post from a member whose car started making smoke following a catch can installation. IIRC, his system was missing a check valve.

I agree with your recommendation to consult with your dealer before installing any engine mods (and I do mean ANY) if you want to preserve your warranty, but I would take it a step further; have them do the installation.

The 2.3L Ecoboost incorporates an air/oil separator, which serves the same purpose as a catch can vis-a-vis keeping oil out of the engine intake. The only difference is the oil separated goes back into the engine's oil supply instead of into a can that must be emptied. Some believe the contaminants they see in their catch cans can cause harm to their engines. That's simply not factual. The sump for this engine holds nearly 6 quarts, which is relatively large compared to most 4 cylinder engines. That amount of oil can safely hold a large quantity of contaminants, which are flushed from the engine when you change the oil.

Ford's engineers--who let's not forget studied the data collected during proving runs--determined the safe contaminant-carrying capacity of 6 qts in this engine allows change intervals of up to 10,000 miles (assuming normal use). Many on this forum advocate changing the engine oil at 5000 miles (or less), which means you will have only half the contaminants if you had waited until 10,000 miles. I believe if you follow the more conservative recommendation of the many forum members and change the oil at 5000 miles you completely negate the need for a catch can (assuming your factory air/oil separator is functioning properly).

Note that some have reported finding oil in their intake systems; this is not normal. I believe a faulty air/oil separator is the biggest contributor to intake valve contamination (the main reason most advocate for a catch can). If your car is under warranty and you are seeing oil in your intake system you should take your car in and have the air/oil separator inspected.

Note also that a catch can serves other purposes beyond separating oil (and other contaminants) from intake air. Those who've tuned their engines are doing two things that make a catch can installation more logical. First, they are typically increasing boost, which will increase crankcase pressure and, consequently, the amount of crankcase vapors circulating through the PCV system. Second, they are demanding more power from the engine, which means slimmer preignition/detonation safety margins. Together, these two factors can make for a dangerous combination. More boost means more crankcase pressure, which means more oil vapors in your intake air. Oil vapor mixed with your intake air lowers the octane of the resultant fuel/air mixture going into the engine, which further reduces the preignition/detonation safety margins.

So, to recap. If you are still under warranty inspect your intake system when you change your oil. If you find oil in your intake system then your factory PCV system is malfunctioning. Take it in and have it fixed ASAP.

If you are still under warranty and not tuned I would suggest installing a catch can serves no purpose while risking your warranty, espescially if you are changing your oil on an accelerated schedule. If you absolutely cannot live without a catch can, talk to your dealer. If they don't have a problem with a catch can then have them do the installation. That way they cannot claim a faulty catch can installation as the cause of any subsequent engine problems.

If you are tuned a catch can offers benefits beyond keeping your intake valves clean; it can also improve preignition/detonation safety margins. If you are tuned then you are probably not that concerned about your warranty anyway, so go ahead and install a catch can. When the warranty expires on my car I plan to install a number of modifications, including an engine tune (it will be like getting a new car at 60k miles!). When I do I will likely install a catch can as well, mainly to prevent adversely affecting intake charge octane due to increased crankcase pressures.

ElAviator72 said:

Just an FYI on catch cans:

One of the major tuners (you've seen their name in this forum, and they're not an individual, and happen to be geographically close to Ford), doesn't recommend them until the engine is older and well broken in, unless you're doing something like tracking the car.

This particular tuner takes the stance that catch cans interfere with the proper lubrication of the rather hard rings and valve guides of the 2.3 ecoboost engine during the break in process...

Back to our regularly scheduled forums

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This is not true in any way. You are not lubricating anything other than manifold with oil getting into the runners and back down into to wells which is NOT something that is combustable. now you are adding more to gunk of the valves, kill octane and cause pinging. Seating rings is based on pressure. not oil. A PCV system pushes oil because of the vacuum and while under boost, it should seal, it doesn't properly so oil is getting on by (hence the smoke people see) A properly built system with a check valve will stop this from happening and only allowing air to pass on by as it's design. Oil is not made to be there. Break in process of ANY motor is the same and oil should not be in the pcv line, or turbo, or intercooler. To much pressure inthe system on a weak ring land will actually crack it and now oil will get right on by which is as equally as bad and will cause a new engine build. Moral of the story is that oil does not belong anywhere other than it's designed locations. It should not be mixed with air.

The biggest thing that is overlooked a lot is. The PCV system does not have a built in filter. No motors do. A baffle screen maybe but not an actual filter. Under RPM and it's lcoation while in vacuum. Oil is going to get by it regardless. It's splashing on by. And in boost, the faulty spring (regardless of fixed or not) does not seal correctly. So instead of sealing, you have unmetered air getting on by the sytem that has oil vapors mixed with it. With time, its going to add up. This is why, a proper system is a must on these cars or any DI motor as that. The UPR DVCC system will keep oil from the manifold and the turbo while providing aditional vacuum to the system. mor vacuum = better idle and ring seal.

Their is also a difference between an catch can and a air oil separator. These cars use a catch can. 995 of the vehicles use that because it actually catches oil. No system will seperate the 2. Now, we have made what is called a clean side separator (V8s only) which will go on the valve cover of the none PCV side, and stop oil that is splashing up into the intake tube as that side drawns in fresh air into the motor (another step to help seat rings)

Now with warranty. It's up to the dealer in the end. Most don't care because can can does not change the ECU or recalibate it. If someone is going to complain, take it off. A proper built can is just designed to keep the air flow running clean and as designed.

UPRSteve said:

The biggest thing that is overlooked a lot is. The PCV system does not have a built in filter. No motors do. A baffle screen maybe but not an actual filter. Under RPM and it's lcoation while in vacuum. Oil is going to get by it regardless. It's
splashing on by.

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How much oil actually "splashes by," and how much needs to spash by to actually be harmful to the engine? Every time I take a drink of water out of the tap in my kitchen I consume all manner of toxins and contaminants, so I need a filter right? Not really, because it all has to do with the quantity. The quantity of toxins and contaminants in my tap water is so low as to be harmless to humans.

UPRSteve said:

And in boost, the faulty spring (regardless of fixed or not) does not seal correctly. So instead of sealing, you have unmetered air getting on by the sytem that has oil vapors mixed with it.

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Again, how much, and how much will actually cause harm? Presumably Ford's engineers tested this when they set tuning parameters for the engine and determined the stock PCV system with its air/oil separator as not presenting a significant hazard. I can see this as a possible concern if you have boosted the engine to the ragged edge of safety, but not a stock motor.

UPRSteve said:

Their is also a difference between an catch can and a air oil separator. These cars use a catch can. 995 of the vehicles use that because it actually catches oil. No system will seperate the 2.

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I don't know what you mean when you say, "These cars use a catch can." I'm assuming this is mistyped, but I don't know what you meant to say. The 2.3L Ecoboost wasn't equipped from the factory with a catch can. Both the stock PCV system (which incorporates an air/oil separator) and aftermarket catch cans are intended to separate oil from the crankcase air before it goes back into the intact tract. A dedicated catch can is probably more effective than the stock air/oil separator, but I've yet to see anyone present any evidence beyond the claims of catch can manufacturers and distributors that the stock air/oil separator is inadequate for a stock engine.

UPRSteve said:

Now with warranty. It's up to the dealer in the end. Most don't care because can can does not change the ECU or recalibate it. If someone is going to complain, take it off.

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Although you're right that most dealers won't care about a catch can, some will, which is why you should coordinate with your dealer before installing one. If you do that there's no reason to take it off when taking the car in for a repair. And while some dealers might honor a warranty claim caused by an improperly installed or malfunctioning catch can, they would be under no obligation to do so. And as far as I'm concerned it would be unethical to make a warranty claim in such a situation.

UPRSteve said:

A proper built can is just designed to keep the air flow running clean and as designed.

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Airflow for the 2.3L ecoboost was "designed" to go through the air/oil separator, not a catch can. The air/oil separator, while probably not effective as a dedicated catch can, is also "designed" to keep the air flow running clean.

UPRSteve said:

This is not true in any way. You are not lubricating anything other than manifold with oil getting into the runners and back down into to wells which is NOT something that is combustable. now you are adding more to gunk of the valves, kill octane and cause pinging.

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We may be attacking this the wrong way. Formula One had to crack down on teams who were cheating by letting oil get sucked into the intake.

Rules limit fuel flow rates. So teams' oil partners (Shell, etc.) have formulated oil that has the same or better octane than the gas does. So the teams were burning oil to augment the fuel in critical times such as qualifying laps.

Just fill your engine with that oil and stop worrying if you need a catch can or not.

Back on topic, if you gutted the PCV then they have every right to deny warranty because you altered how the system was designed to work.

If you are worried about your warranty, Keep it stock. I use a UPR DV CC, since 180 miles, has 6000 miles on it now. I empty every 2000 miles, with a few ounces of a weird fuel oil water mixture that can not be good for the engine. I would not put the fluid form the CC in any gas tank, so I would rather it not go back through the intake system on my car.