Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

One of my favourite sayings is "It's not how fast you get there, it's how you look when you arrive", so I'll leave the debate over which version of the cars should have been compared, etc. to those here who are more serious than I about performance. I've had various cars over my life and do not consider myself attached to any particular brand but when I decided to treat myself the Camaro wasn't in the running. I've just never liked the looks of the modern Camaro. I considered the Challenger, Cadillac ATS, BMW (coupes and convertibles) and briefly, a 370Z (although a 2 seater would have been a tough sell with one child still at home) but ultimately the Mustang was the winner for me. It looks fabulous. Period.

Johnnybee said:

One of my favourite sayings is "It's not how fast you get there, it's how you look when you arrive", so I'll leave the debate over which version of the cars should have been compared, etc. to those here who are more serious than I about performance. I've had various cars over my life and do not consider myself attached to any particular brand but when I decided to treat myself the Camaro wasn't in the running. I've just never liked the looks of the modern Camaro. I considered the Challenger, Cadillac ATS, BMW (coupes and convertibles) and briefly, a 370Z (although a 2 seater would have been a tough sell with one child still at home) but ultimately the Mustang was the winner for me. It looks fabulous. Period.

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I was waiting for your highly anticipated, thorough and significant opinion on automotive styling. Time to sell my car now that it has been spoken.

Just busting your :headbonk:

Mountain376 said:

I was waiting for your highly anticipated, thorough and significant opinion on automotive styling. Time to sell my car now that it has been spoken.

Just busting your :headbonk:

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I wouldn't sell it just set it on fire and roast marshmallows

EcoVert said:

I wouldn't sell it just set it on fire and roast marshmallows

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Too much plastic for marshmallows :doh:

garagelogic said:

I love the denial of the visibility issue by Camaro owners and the “you get used to it” mantra. If you lose a tooth, you get used to it not being there, or work around it, but it does not mean you don’t have a gap in your teeth that should have never been there!

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1320' said:

What gets me is when they say..

"The visibility is fine if you use the cameras"

..hint:

If you need an external camera to safely operate the vehicle..the visibility isn't fine.

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millhouse said:

That's why I like the phrase..."you get numb to it" better. It's always there...and every now and then something will happen that reminds you of such.



Haha, indeed.

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I don't think it matters much if a person likes the car. How many people on this forum chose the 15-17 Mustang over the Camaro despite the performance gap? What was their excuse? It was that they liked the Mustang better for this or that reason. Sure the Camaro has it's flaws. But those flaws will get overlooked just like the flaws of the Mustang will get overlooked. I have driven both cars extensively. And I like both cars very much. However I did not notice the visibility issue to the extent that you guys are making it out to be. Just like the performance gap wouldn't be enough to sway me towards a Camaro if I really wanted a Mustang. Plenty of people are DDing the Camaro and tracking them and racing. There are enough of them out there to assume that they are overlooking or ignoring or maybe the visibility issue just isn't as bad as we think it is.

4V Mayhem said:

I don't think it matters much if a person likes the car. How many people on this forum chose the 15-17 Mustang over the Camaro despite the performance gap? What was their excuse? It was that they liked the Mustang better for this or that reason. Sure the Camaro has it's flaws. But those flaws will get overlooked just like the flaws of the Mustang will get overlooked. I have driven both cars extensively. And I like both cars very much. However I did not notice the visibility issue to the extent that you guys are making it out to be. Just like the performance gap wouldn't be enough to sway me towards a Camaro if I really wanted a Mustang. Plenty of people are DDing the Camaro and tracking them and racing. There are enough of them out there to assume that they are overlooking or ignoring or maybe the visibility issue just isn't as bad as we think it is.

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People that want to overlook the camaros issues will buy them. Those that are objectionable will not.

The mustang simply doesn't have those flaws...and no, being marginally slower isn't a flaw. The camaro was designed with a ridiculously small trunk opening and a extremely high belt line with a low roof and giant A and C pillars. GM chose form over function and it's obvious to anyone that sit's in them back to back with a mustang.

Does it make it a bad car? No...except for those that don't like to rubber neck at stoplights, those that rely on visual blind spot checks and those that like to fit golf clubs in their trunks.

Have you ever purchased a set of tires that were just loud driving down the road? The noise never goes away, and it never gets better...yet you will eventually stop noticing it. This is what happens with the camaros visibility...and quite honestly it's a design flaw that sways buyers away from it.

4V Mayhem said:

I don't think it matters much if a person likes the car. How many people on this forum chose the 15-17 Mustang over the Camaro despite the performance gap? What was their excuse? It was that they liked the Mustang better for this or that reason. Sure the Camaro has it's flaws. But those flaws will get overlooked just like the flaws of the Mustang will get overlooked. I have driven both cars extensively. And I like both cars very much. However I did not notice the visibility issue to the extent that you guys are making it out to be. Just like the performance gap wouldn't be enough to sway me towards a Camaro if I really wanted a Mustang. Plenty of people are DDing the Camaro and tracking them and racing. There are enough of them out there to assume that they are overlooking or ignoring or maybe the visibility issue just isn't as bad as we think it is.

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The only real performance gap is track handling, and that will never be seen on the street. They are pretty much equal for acceleration, which is more noticeable on the street. Personally, I don’t buy cars based on magazine numbers. If it looks good, handles well, and has comparable acceleration, I am happy.

One of my friends just picked up a 16 2SS 6MT. We rode in and drove each other's cars for a bit. Before this I've never been inside a Camaro, my thoughts after my short drive and considering the differences between the cars...

Interior of the Mustang (401A) is leaps and bounds nicer looking and feeling than the 2SS - I just don't see how this part could be subjective. The Camaro is very plasticky and some of the ergonomics are a little puzzling. The electronic emergency brake protrudes up from the center console area where one would naturally rest their arm when driving a Mustang. I accidentally engaged the parking brake and stalled at a light. The Camaro did have a cool wireless charging spot but as my friend showed me, it's too small for current gen phones. It also doesn't look like it would keep a phone in place very well - plus it's behind the seats so you would have to reach back to to place/retrieve a phone. The center console is also quite uselessly undersized. The infotainment UI looks dated with a lot of full color beveled icons all over it, but I didn't spend any time going through it. Getting into and sitting in the car did feel somewhat like being in a submarine, my fiancé sat in it for a minute but she felt claustrophobic almost immediately and had to get out. I usually like to rest my elbow on my door-sill right next to the window, this is impossible in the Camaro due to the high belt line. The edge-less rear-view mirror looked great, I wish I had one. The HUD was awesome and really was the one feature that I thought was done perfectly, I didn't expect it to be so useful. To sum of the inside of the Camaro, it's as if they took an existing design, and then came up with a list of nice QOL features and tech they wanted to include, and ended up plugging things in anywhere they could to make it fit.

Now for actually driving it...first I did not use reverse so I can't comment on that experience, but the 2SS has BLISS and cross-traffic which I would say is mandatory for that car. The rear window really is small, more of a port-hole than anything, but when driving in traffic it isn't noticeable or a concern. The blind spots are bad as well, since the rear fender hips of the Camaro prevent the c-pillar glass from being anything more than a small sliver (which you can't see anyway because of the thickness of the C pillar). However, looking straight ahead and off to the sides isn't a problem at all.

I found the clutch on his car to be incredibly light, and much easier to operate than the Mustang's. The engagement point is much lower and I could actually keep my heel on the floor and pivot my foot to operate the clutch. On the Mustang I have to lift my foot off of the floor completely since the engagement point is basically the top-most pedal position. It was also much easier to tell when the clutch was engaged (I have the Steeda return spring on mine). The shifter, while pretty tall and not much of a short-stroke like the Mustang's, seemed a lot more bolt-action. It was as if there was no dead zone anywhere in the pattern, or any play in the shifter. It took less effort than the Mustang's to push into gear. It also had rev-matching...and my, oh my. That is the one thing that makes me sour on not having a 19MY. It quite literally makes it feel like you are driving an assisted manual. It rev matches perfectly in any gear without any jolt. Between that and the ease of the clutch and shifter, it's a much easier car to drive, IMO. The 1-4 gear skipshift thing sucks, though. I don't think a manual-trans car should dictate how you are allowed to shift it.

Since this was just a short cruise around the area we didn't beat on the cars much. I couldn't really feel a difference in the suspension tightness/body roll of the 2SS and non-PP GT suspension. I think his either may be a little softer, or allow less travel, because he was hitting his front bump stops while going over the speed humps in my neighborhood. It seemed fast, but not being used to the transmission gearing, or having much exposure, it seemed to fall on its face a little bit after some shifts, but I know that's just me not knowing the best practices for that car. It also had the NPP exhaust which I guess is their version of Active Exhaust. It has 4 modes just like ours, but the "stealth" mode wasn't nearly as quiet as quiet mode. It's more comparable to the noise level of a 15-17GT stock exhaust. Track mode was louder and sounded great, but it's not quite as loud as the Track mode on the Mustang.

It's a good looking car and I can see why people like them, but like anything it has its own compromises. Lots of features and technology but a cheaply-felt implementation of them. The looks of them grew on me a bit over the last couple of years, and with especially how horrible the 2019 SS looks, I think the pre-facelift design is pretty good on the outside. It's crazy how much lower the roof of the Camaro is than the Mustang.

Kevin08 said:

Interior of the Mustang (401A) is leaps and bounds nicer looking and feeling than the 2SS - I just don't see how this part could be subjective. The Camaro is very plasticky and some of the ergonomics are a little puzzling.

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THANK GOD I'm not the only person who thinks this... last time I said that in here, I had people telling me I'm crazy because "muh HUD". I understand the HUD is a great feature to have, but to me, it does nothing to make up for the rest of the interior.

Overall, good assessment. I agree with everything that was said.

4V Mayhem said:

I don't think it matters much if a person likes the car. How many people on this forum chose the 15-17 Mustang over the Camaro despite the performance gap? What was their excuse? It was that they liked the Mustang better for this or that reason. Sure the Camaro has it's flaws. But those flaws will get overlooked just like the flaws of the Mustang will get overlooked. I have driven both cars extensively. And I like both cars very much. However I did not notice the visibility issue to the extent that you guys are making it out to be. Just like the performance gap wouldn't be enough to sway me towards a Camaro if I really wanted a Mustang. Plenty of people are DDing the Camaro and tracking them and racing. There are enough of them out there to assume that they are overlooking or ignoring or maybe the visibility issue just isn't as bad as we think it is.

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Dude, stop making sense. That could get you banned. But seriously, very objective pov. :clap2:

I think it would have been nice if the electronic dash option on the Mustang included a HUD. On a somewhat related note, I drove a friend's Tesla Model 3 the other day (talk about instant acceleration!). Now there is a car that needs a HUD.

Johnnybee said:

I think it would have been nice if the electronic dash option on the Mustang included a HUD. On a somewhat related note, I drove a friend's Tesla Model 3 the other day (talk about instant acceleration!). Now there is a car that needs a HUD.

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Let's not kid ourselves though, a HUD isn't a requirement in today's cars...it's a novelty. Let's put it another way, do you think the majority would rather have the HUD or Bluetooth connection for their phone? Or how about the fancy new digital dash? I personally car much about back seat leg room and trunk space than a HUD that I have lived without for my 25 years of driving.

millhouse said:

Let's not kid ourselves though, a HUD isn't a requirement in today's cars...it's a novelty. Let's put it another way, do you think the majority would rather have the HUD or Bluetooth connection for their phone? Or how about the fancy new digital dash? I personally car much about back seat leg room and trunk space than a HUD that I have lived without for my 25 years of driving.

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Perhaps. But then over 38 years of driving I've done without a lot of things too, including power steering, intermittent wipers, power brakes, ABS, traction control, A/C, FM radio, sheet metal that wasn't starting to rust at year 3 and a bunch of other stuff that is standard for virtually every new car sold today. I only checked off the premium interior because I wanted a heated wheel, as I typically drive top down if it's over 10C and dry and at my advanced years I thought a wheel warming my hands would be nice. I could easily live without the digital dash and navigation that I was forced to take for that wheel.

Go drive a Model 3, with its tablet display in the centre of the car that you have to look down and to the right to read. Maybe you get used to it but for all the tech and money in that vehicle, it wouldn't have been much of a step to have the speedo and battery reserve display in front of one's eyes.

Johnnybee said:

Perhaps. But then over 38 years of driving I've done without a lot of things too, including power steering, intermittent wipers, power brakes, ABS, traction control, A/C, FM radio, sheet metal that wasn't starting to rust at year 3 and a bunch of other stuff that is standard for virtually every new car sold today. I only checked off the premium interior because I wanted a heated wheel, as I typically drive top down if it's over 10C and dry and at my advanced years I thought a wheel warming my hands would be nice. I could easily live without the digital dash and navigation that I was forced to take for that wheel.

Go drive a Model 3, with its tablet display in the centre of the car that you have to look down and to the right to read. Maybe you get used to it but for all the tech and money in that vehicle, it wouldn't have been much of a step to have the speedo and battery reserve display in front of one's eyes.

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The model 3 not having a display in front of the driver is an egregious design flaw. Had the mustang been like that, I would not have purchased.

The difference however between a heads up display and a standard panel is only movement to the eyeballs. The information is right there in front of you either way, one is just 6 inches below the other. I’ve never driven around in the mustang thinking…damn, if I only had a heads up display…then I wouldn’t have to move my eyeballs as much. It’s much more of a novelty than a heated steering wheel in the frozen tundra (been there, it’s nice not having to wear gloves). Same with the digital dash, it’s awesome and shiny…but not at all necessary when the analog version gives you all the information you need. Would it be nice if I had both? Sure, but it’s not on a majority’s “must have” checklist and doesn’t provide you with any more information than what the car already provides.

Put me in the anti HUD camp. I don't get it, and the reflection of the mechanism in the window is distracting, IMO.