Don't buy a catch can unless...

GTBOB said:

It’s not necessarily preventing dirty valves but more of a spark knock preventer. What happens is that the oil vapor going into the intake can cool and eventually liquify and puddle up in some of crevices and valleys. During throttle tip in and high vacuum situations, that oil goop will be injested and effectively reduce the octane rating of the fuel being shot into the chamber, causing detonation and spark knock.

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It is unlikely that it will puddle up in a modern intake manifold. The biggest downside of recirculating it into the intake stream is intake deposits, with a slight chance of gumming on the IM. Fuel detergents (and ethanol) reduce chance of IV deposits, and gumming of the IM will not hurt power much at all. I tore apart my pathfinder engine last year and saw almost no oil buildup after 100k miles and 13 years of abuse. I know that baby sucks in some oil.

Ebm said:

Do you have a certain goal you want to achieve for mileage?

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Indefinite. Much like oil brand, using a catch can isn't going to affect the engine longevity to the extent that any one of us will see. In other words, by the time you will need to start worrying about oil in the intake, you will likely have already needed a complete engine overall (hundreds of thousands of miles).

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millhouse said:

Indefinite. Much like oil brand, using a catch can isn't going to affect the engine longevity to the extent that any one of us will see. In other words, by the time you will need to start worrying about oil in the intake, you will likely have already needed a complete engine overall (hundreds of thousands of miles).

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Haha, that's not what I meant. I don't expect catch cans to increase longevity on the Coyote. I meant do you have a goal in mind for how long you would ideally like the engine to go.

I'm with ya though, I want mine to last indefinitely. As long as possible with regular maintenance.

Ebm said:

Haha, that's not what I meant. I don't expect catch cans to increase longevity on the Coyote. I meant do you have a goal in mind for how long you would ideally like the engine to go.

I'm with ya though, I want mine to last indefinitely. As long as possible with regular maintenance.

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LOL, indefinitely is my answer....as long as I own it (which will likely be many years). If I had to put an exact number on it, well past 200k miles...although I man not ever reach that number.

Gumming up is probably not the right word. I have heard how these newer engines have varnished up, coated or whatever on the heads and valves and it is my understanding that is one of the reasons there is now port injection as well on the 18's. Whether or not this is part of the cause or not or just reducing (possibly) octane, I can't see having this re-directed back into the engine as being good.
There are many true gear heads on this forum who I know can elaborate more on what at least I was thinking and able to clear things up? I have been full of sh*t before so it won't be the first time..:headbonk::headbonk:

Weeeellllll considering port FI sprays gas directly on the back of the intake valve, that's more then enough to keep the intake valve lubed.

Wanka said:

Gumming up is probably not the right word. I have heard how these newer engines have varnished up, coated or whatever on the heads and valves and it is my understanding that is one of the reasons there is now port injection as well on the 18's. Whether or not this is part of the cause or not or just reducing (possibly) octane, I can't see having this re-directed back into the engine as being good.
There are many true gear heads on this forum who I know can elaborate more on what at least I was thinking and able to clear things up? I have been full of sh*t before so it won't be the first time..:headbonk::headbonk:

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Light varnish won’t hurt anything. Carbonaceous buildup is the performance degrading issue. Heavy varnish is more gumming. Too much may cause some throttle body sticking, but that would take a lot of buildup. I used to work in petrochemicals, specifically devoted to things like detergency.

If you are racing or running boost, I can see the need. With stock or bolt on engines, it isn’t an important mod.

millhouse said:

What "could" happen is what lures people into buying catch-cans when in all actuality, it's not going to happen.

If it gives you peace of mind, awesome. If I find a bit of horsepower loss at 150k miles, I'll just clean out the intake (I don't think that's going to happen though).

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...-horsepower-high-mile-coyote-2011-mustang-gt/

There is a stock high mileage coyote with no degradation of power.

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The purpose of the catch can is for performance reasons during track applications. Track typically invovles sustained high engine loads and builds up the greatest thermal demands on the engine.

Oil WILL boil off and enter the combustion chamber. While it won't hurt the engine mechanically and the ECU will pull timing when necessary to keep things running safe, your loosing power.

Catch cans can help track cars run maximum timing as much as possible during the entire track session. On a street car you typically don't see those kinds of sustained thermal loads, but even on a stock 5.0 it can be an issue. So it all depends on what your doing with the car. Some applications it makes sense, other applications it does not.

Motor Trend noted that their PP GT seemed to pull timing after a few laps on their test track. While MC-5W-20 is actually quite a good oil from a lubrication and shear standpoint and has a good viscosity index (164), it has marginal NOACK ratings and is prone to boil off.

My guess, the factory oil was diluting fuel and the ECU had to start pulling some timing to avoid knock. I'll bet their 2015 PP GT test car would not have pulled timing with a catch can or a newer Dexos 1 Gen 2 rated oil from Mobil, Valvoline, Amsoil etc.

Dexos 1 Gen 2 or ILSAC GF-5 Plus specs are designed to meet TDI requirements for LSPI resistance, however it benefits NA engines as well because it reduces the tendency of the oil to cause knock in general.

So if you track the car or do any sort of driving with sustained high RPM and heavy throttle operation, a catch can and Dexos 1 Gen 2 or ILSAC GF-5 Plus certified oil could go a long way in helping you put down peak power consistently instead of power fading.

I just had an experience with this myself hot roding around twising and winding roads in the foot hills around here. I was on the throttle pretty consistently for about 20 mintues and I could tell it started to loose some edge as things heated up even though nothing was over heated.

After I got on the highway and drove for about 20~30 minutes and the car cooled down, I needed to get back on the throttle and it definitely had it's edge back. This is the second time I've experienced some minor fade in power after sustained high RPM and throttle in more "track like" driving situations. It just looses that "edge" it normally has as things start to heat up after sustained throttle usage.

Mind you it was 90F out, AC on and 600 lbs of passengers which is not the same as driving on an actual track, but probably darn close in terms of how it thermally loads the engine. My oil temps were at about 3/4 of the way up the green on the "idiot" gauge, so I was not into the nanny zone yet and the idiot coolant gauge didn't indicate any abnormal temps either. Nothing was over it's limits, but things were definitely running hotter than your typical day to day or on-ramp 2-3 pulls.

I have a Power Pack 2 and Corsa Sport Cat Back installed on my 2016 PP GT, rest of the engine is stock. I'm running factory MC 5W-20 semi-syn but will change over to something better once it hit 20k here pretty soon. I'm not sure if a better quality oil is enough by itself, I'll have to test that out first, but if it's not I'll be adding a catch can, probably the Ford Performance option as it's cheap and easy to swap in / out when I know I'm going to push the car hard for long intervals. For daily there's no need to have it in there.

I've done this kind of driving before on other back roads for 20~30 minute intervals and also experienced some fade in power both stock and with the Power Pack 2 so I'm looking into getting a catch can and better oil to combat that issue.

I'm not the only one, even their bone stock 2015 PP GT experience some fade even though nothing was over temp:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/ford-mustang-gt-at-lightning-lap-2015-feature

And I quote:

Despite normal readings from the oil and coolant gauges, we did experience a slight fade in power during our hot laps. The shifter also drew ire. Close gates make it easy to find fifth when you’re looking for third. But mostly, the GT’s polished perform*ance makes us eager to try out the more powerful and track-focused GT350R.

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Another note, I spoke with Ford Performance recently about the fade in power during my extended back road intervals. They said it's well know and common issue with the 5.0's pulling timing even though nothing is at unsafe temperatures due to oil inhalation through he PCV system and is one of the primary reasons they created an oil separator for the passenger side (primary source of vapor). They didn't see any concern of "fouling" issues because all 5.0's are Port Injected or dual Injection, but the primary reason is octane dilution which will of course cause the ECU to pull timing even on a stock car.

They said any of the after market units should be good enough since their unit won't work with the Power Pack 2 / 3 (if so equipped) due to the throttle body causing fitment issues with their oil separator design.

There's a couple good ones out there that are easy to use and affordable. JLT v3.0 and UPR come to mind. Both unscrew from the bottom and allow you to just empty the canister and are drop in.

Both have large enough capacity that you should only need to empty it once every oil change. Might be a good option if you experience some power fade like I do during sustained heavy throttle.

If your mustang is just a street car and mostly are limited to a quick 5 second pull 2-3 for on-ramps and an occasional 1/4 mile pass a modern synthetic oil of your choice that is Dexos 1 Gen2 or ISLAC GF-5 Plus certified should be good enough by itself to limit boil off and minimize fuel dilution.

Note that oil injestion isn't necessarily harmful, once the thermal loading is reduced obviously your not going to have high vaporization and the effects are minuscule. Unless your running some super aggressive timing, the ECU should be able to safely scale back timing advance until knock is at an acceptable level. Downside is your scaling back power, but how much is enough for you? Maybe you don't care and it's still plenty. But maybe you desire to keep power at it's peak as often as possible....it all depends on your application.

if you drive it hard, frequently and for extended periods of time there is a real benefit in using an oil separator, which allows the 5.0 to continue to make maximum power under hard usage. That's the real benefit. It's not reliability over the life if the car, it's making peak power during sustained heavy throttle. The problem may actually be worse in cooler weather, higher air density means more fuel to keep that magic ratio, that means more actual power and higher heat is generated. The slight increase in the radiator's thermal capacity in cooler air is very small, much smaller than you think and if more than off-set by the higher heat generated internally.

I was a little skeptical about catch cans.

Installed my Whipple this winter with 15k on the clock.

The lower intake looked like it had 200k worth of build up on it.

Can't be good for a boost application.....just ordered the UPR set up.

SVT-DADDY said:

I was a little skeptical about catch cans.

Installed my Whipple this winter with 15k on the clock.

The lower intake looked like it had 200k worth of build up on it.

Can't be good for a boost application.....just ordered the UPR set up.

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When I installed my 18 manifold w/ 11k on the odometer I noticed similar. Every one of the intake ports on the head had a ring of oil on them. Installed a JLT catch can at the same time as the manifold, so hopefully it helps. So far it has definitely caught some oil, not huge amounts but there is a noticeable volume for sure.

SQ

Nuked said:

When I installed my 18 manifold w/ 11k on the odometer I noticed similar. Every one of the intake ports on the head had a ring of oil on them. Installed a JLT catch can at the same time as the manifold, so hopefully it helps. So far it has definitely caught some oil, not huge amounts but there is a noticeable volume for sure.

SQ

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Similar to you, each intake port had oil around them at 20,000 miles, but I installed my JLT 1.0 catch can when my car had less than 1,000 miles on it.

Not sure if it's defective? My stock intake manifold also had some oil in it.

Joe 5.0 said:

Similar to you, each intake port had oil around them at 20,000 miles, but I installed my JLT 1.0 catch can when my car had less than 1,000 miles on it.

Not sure if it's defective? My stock intake manifold also had some oil in it.

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Don't forget guys that there are two banks to the 5.0...it's a V8 after all . There is some blow by from the drivers side bank as well and catch cans are not 100% effective.

The idea is to reduce oil accumulation to the point where it doesn't dilute the fuel. This is also why I recomend using a newer oil formula that is Dexos 1 Gen 2 or ILSAP GF-5 Plus certified.

While those oils are designed specifically to address LSPI in TDI engines, they produce the same benefits in NA engines by reducing the frequency and severity of knock when oil DOES get into the combustion chamber. They have low deposits when burned up in the combustion chamber and also limit their effects on fuel dilution. Combining the two together will yield the best results.

I have a JLT 3.0 passenger side catch can on order myself that should be here some time in the next couple of days. I'm at a little over 19k miles, about 1600 miles since the Power Pack 2 was installed.

The LSPI resistant oil worked well in my Ecoboost to limit vaporization as most of them have low NOACK ratings of 10 or less. I used maybe a 1/4 quart over 10k mile change intervals. MC 5W-20 Semi-syn's weakness is it's high 15+ boil off rate.

Mobil 1's Advanced Synthetic formula seems to be the closest fit of common oils. It's Dexos 1 Gen 2 certified, has a viscosity index nearly identical to MC 5W-20 semi-syn (which is surprisingly good), equal cold flow temperatures and much better thermal oxidation stability. It's also only about 23~25$ for a 5 quart jug. I highly recomend only using the FL-500S OE filters from ford because many of the aftermarket filters DO NOT have anti-drain back valves. The factory filter keeps the oil system pressurized for startups to everything is lubricated immediately instead of just relying on the oils film to lubricate the engine until oil starts to flow. This reduces cold start wear. So far I have not found a single after market filter with an anti-drain back valve, so no need to deviate there.

ILSAC GF-5 Plus is very similar in that it addresses the same issue as Dexos 1 Gen 2 standard from GM, but the standard will not be finalized until 2019 I believe so it's technically not a fo sho thing yet, so right now GM's standard is all we have to go by, but they did a crap ton of R&D on it including a huge automotive engineering convention multiple years in a row attended by BMW, Mercedes, Toyoda, GM and other notables when Mazda and Hyudai's TDI engines were "mysteriously " blowing up.

The best solutions are a sum of many parts. Rarely is there a golden egg solution that magically gives you the best results by itself.

You guys complaining about this are being a bit overly dramatic and borderline silly. This is the way high performance engines are. Hell, I remember plumbing my PCV breathers back down into long tube headers because the Blowby. A lose engine is a fast engine.



Even with the electronics of the new engines that little amount of blowby isn't going to cause failures or horribly noticeable Hp differences. If it ever does detonate for some strange extreme reason the ECU is dumb enough to pull timing.




THE ONLY exception to my opinion on this is for the guys who are running E85 that stuff will contaminate your Oil and combustion much faster. Also, you should be changing your Oil more often. I love E85 and once I add a Whipple to my current project, I'll use the corn but there is More maintenance than many people are willing to admit.


That said, I have a catch can but I don't worry about it. It's a good measuring device. If for some reason you've got a lot more oil consistently over a period of time, you'll be able to tell if you're about to let the smoke out.

@TheLion



Great info especially about the filters.


@Wolvee

Ask Whipple what there stance is on catch cans, I think you'll be surprised.