Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

cosmo · Jul 17, 2018

Cobra Jet said:
Fellas, read between the lies....

Tom Barnes is essentially saying:

If they had added the coolers to the PP2 platform, then the PP2 is treading into the GT350 territory; by doing so Ford would lose GT350 sales over the PP2, which cost less than the GT350. Why purchase a GT350 (other than those who just want the “Shelby” name), when a GT PP2 would be very close to its margin not only in sales but performance?

I’m sure even now, without intention, the GT PP2 has encroached on the GT350...

It’s kinda of like bringing back Mercury - why have a Mercury Milan, when the consumer is gong to buy the Ford Fusion for less with similar performance, or opt for the Lincoln MKZ with more frills?

Or bringing back the Pontiac Trans-Am, which was essentially the same vehicle as the Camaro with merely different names and badges....

It's stupid.

Of course it has gotten near GT350 lap territory, they put Cup 2s on it and beefed up the suspension and added aero. The longer gear ratios help.

But then they didn't put the proper cooling hardware on it.

So... You have this weird mix of track parts while leaving out some critical components. They should have either put Pilots 4S tires on it with the beefier suspension and whatnot, or added the coolers in and kept the Cup 2s. Going half and half is dumb.

TomcatDriver · Jul 17, 2018

grabber yote said:
I stand corrected on all premium options but why is the 301A even required with the PP2 when you can order a GT350 with base model GT 300a options? A friend of mine has a base GT350 with the 4 inch base sync system and no "fluff".

In my opinion the 300A level trim and 4" calculator radio shouldn't even be an option in 2018. The "base" should be the 301A at the price the 300A is now. Base radios in cars like the Accent, Corolla or Civic are better. I was suprised they didn't do that for 2019, but you can still get that calculator radio.

And someone is going to say "yea, but I don't want to pay that fancy stuff." To which I reply, a 7-8" display with Carplay and Android Auto isn't "fancy stuff" that you have to pay for in 2018. It's cheap commodity electronics that I can get from Crutchfield for a couple hundred bucks, and costs Ford even less.

mustang1 · Jul 17, 2018

JD_GTPP2 said:
I bought the August Road and Track issue today just for the PP2 article. The crux of the "not a track car" portion is below:

This is verbatim from the article:

R&T: Unlike the GT350, the PP2 doesn't have a differential- or transmission-oil coolers to allow for extended track time. One has to ask, why weren't they added?

"We obviously knew we could do that," Barnes (Mustang Vehicle Engineering manager Tom Barnes) says. "But I'd just say that we didn't want to go there. And there are a lot of different reasons why. This (the PP2) is sandwiched between the GT350 and the PP1. If you start to add those (coolers), you add complexity, engineering, weight, cost. In the end, we didn't want to go to that full track capability. We thought this was a good place."

Chevy sells the base 1SS with the coolers for MSRP $38k. Despite the "complexity, engineering, weight, cost". Although its not clear if the transmission cooler is for both manual and automatic.

BmacIL · Jul 17, 2018

The VEM (Barnes) and the Vehicle Line Chief botched this one badly. The whole package is pointless without the coolers. Do it right or don't do it.

Silver Bullitt · Jul 17, 2018

My PP2 with active exhaust and Recaros was $38,750. I could add coolers and still be under $40K. I don't plan on tracking the car enough to worry about it. If it will go five hard laps in between some pacing laps, I'd be good with that. If I was a regular tracker, the SS 1LE would have been the better option, but I'm just not sure I would have been happy with it as a DD.

bluebeastsrt · Jul 17, 2018

BmacIL said:
The VEM (Barnes) and the Vehicle Line Chief botched this one badly. The whole package is pointless without the coolers. Do it right or don't do it.

Agreed.
I wish Ford would play to its strenths. We currently have the fastest straight line pony car. With the A10. Sell a drag pack. Similiar to what the demon comes with. Give it 305 drag radials from the factory. The bullits 475hp. And make no excuses!

2018OFPP1?2 · Jul 17, 2018

Seems like everyone is missing the forest for the trees here. Ford gave us a car that's likely within spitting distance of a GT350 performance wise, save for some relatively inexpensive add-ons, for $10-25k less. Seems like a win for the mustang enthusiast in my book. The real question should be, is a Shelby really $10-25k better than this car?

TomcatDriver · Jul 17, 2018

I think if Ford intentionally hobbled the PP2 it was unwise. That being said, they probably figured it was "good enough". I'm not sure I buy the theory that they were afraid of cutting into GT350 sales. GT350 is different enough, it has different body panels, different seats, different engine, different transmission. It's a much more different car than tires and cooling.

garagelogic · Jul 18, 2018

TomcatDriver said:
I think if Ford intentionally hobbled the PP2 it was unwise. That being said, they probably figured it was "good enough". I'm not sure I buy the theory that they were afraid of cutting into GT350 sales. GT350 is different enough, it has different body panels, different seats, different engine, different transmission. It's a much more different car than tires and cooling.

This. Let’s be honest the MAJORITY of folks buying the GT350’s are not taking them to the track. They bought/buy them because they are the top-of-the-line Mustang and offer things you cannot get in a GT in any trim. People want to feel like they are driving something special when they buy a car, and the GT350 offers them that due to its production numbers.

BmacIL · Jul 18, 2018

2018OFPP1?2 said:
Seems like everyone is missing the forest for the trees here. Ford gave us a car that's likely within spitting distance of a GT350 performance wise, save for some relatively inexpensive add-ons, for $10-25k less. Seems like a win for the mustang enthusiast in my book. The real question should be, is a Shelby really $10-25k better than this car?

OEM coolers are often going to be better optimized for the package they're in than the aftermarket, and are warranteed. It's ridiculous that they would put things like 305 wide Sport Cup 2s (which are only really good for track duty, certainly not a good daily tire) on a car that's incapable of using that immense grip without having to take frequent breaks. Again, either make it a track capable car or don't. Don't put track equipment on it as standard and then hobble it.

Oh, and yes, the GT350 is worth the premium for the engine and transmission alone, along with the stupendous brakes and aforementioned OEM trans and diff coolers. It's a very special car. The PP2 is a close but no cigar, although could've been quite special, IMO.

2018OFPP1?2 · Jul 18, 2018

BmacIL said:
OEM coolers are often going to be better optimized for the package they're in than the aftermarket, and are warranteed. It's ridiculous that they would put things like 305 wide Sport Cup 2s (which are only really good for track duty, certainly not a good daily tire) on a car that's incapable of using that immense grip without having to take frequent breaks. Again, either make it a track capable car or don't. Don't put track equipment on it as standard and then hobble it.

Oh, and yes, the GT350 is worth the premium for the engine and transmission alone, along with the stupendous brakes and aforementioned OEM trans and diff coolers. It's a very special car. The PP2 is a close but no cigar, although could've been quite special, IMO.

So aftermarket isn't optimized. Does it get the job done? There is a whole industry built around it. And warranty. Really? You're gonna risk wading up a $40-50k car on the track, and the lack of a warrantied part is going to stop you? These aren't very serious arguments against the PP2 imo.

I agree the GT350 is a special car, but mostly because of the engine. I love the voodoo, but not enough to part with another huge chunk of cash. Especially when the Gen 3 coyote closes the gap, and is special in its own right. If Ford releases performances packs for it, maybe erases the gap. The rest of it, all easily doable. From a performance capabilities standpoint, the PP2 is special. I think Ford nailed it, and the parts it's 'missing' aren't even worth mentioning for the vast majority of buyers. You have 99% of an awesome track car. Spend a couple more bucks to make it 100% or go buy a 1LE if you have no affinity for mustangs.

bluebeastsrt · Jul 18, 2018

2018OFPP1?2 said:
So aftermarket isn't optimized. Does it get the job done? There is a whole industry built around it. And warranty. Really? You're gonna risk wading up a $40-50k car on the track, and the lack of a warrantied part is going to stop you? These aren't very serious arguments against the PP2 imo.

I agree the GT350 is a special car, but mostly because of the engine. I love the voodoo, but not enough to part with another huge chunk of cash. Especially when the Gen 3 coyote closes the gap, and is special in its own right. If Ford releases performances packs for it, maybe erases the gap. The rest of it, all easily doable. From a performance capabilities standpoint, the PP2 is special. I think Ford nailed it, and the parts it's 'missing' aren't even worth mentioning for the vast majority of buyers. You have 99% of an awesome track car. Spend a couple more bucks to make it 100% or go buy a 1LE if you have no affinity for mustangs.

Special is determined 30 years from now when GTs are in junk years or on Craigslist for 5 grand. (Before you lose your mind. I own a GT also). And the GT350 will be a collectors item on Barrett Jackson. I know it drives everyone crazy to hear that. But only the special edition stangs will hold some value. Or any pony car for that matter. The PP2 mustang or 1Le Camaro will be like owning a Ws6 trans-am today. Doesn’t really ad much value to the car in the long run. At least Ford doesn’t offer a 2.0L PP2 like GM.

Trackaholic · Jul 18, 2018

Seems like once again Ford is their own worst enemy. Almost as bad as skipping the coolers in the initial GT350 Tech pack cars. You would think they would have learned their lesson from that debacle.

People should expect a PP2 to hang with a GT350 due to the tire difference alone. It certainly wouldn't bother me if a PP2 was neck and neck with a GT350 for a sustained session. I definitely think this is a case where a more competitive product from GM (in terms of a well rounded car), would have forced Ford's hand a bit more. As it stands, the SS 1LE is a great track car, but that isn't quite enough to threaten Ford it seems.

Ah well, as long as people know what the car is about going in, then I guess all is well, and they can choose to go for the GT350 or 1LE or stick with the PP2 as their situation warrants.

-T

Hi-PO Stang · Jul 18, 2018

It appears people are concerned the PP2 Mustang will go into limp mode after one lap at a racetrack. I would think serious track day Mustang owners would find someone who could raise the temperature limits in the Mustang computer to prevent limp mode. I don't think a full track day will ruin the trans or rearend because of no coolers. I have run 20 lap features on dirt tracks using 6.20 rear gears and a Maverick 3 speed top loader for years without coolers and have not burned the gear lube or bearings. If the trans needs coolers, what do your wheel bearings need ? Think about it ! Ford is saving weight !

martinjlm · Jul 18, 2018

2018OFPP1?2 said:
Seems like everyone is missing the forest for the trees here. Ford gave us a car that's likely within spitting distance of a GT350 performance wise, save for some relatively inexpensive add-ons, for $10-25k less. Seems like a win for the mustang enthusiast in my book. The real question should be, is a Shelby really $10-25k better than this car?

BmacIL said:
OEM coolers are often going to be better optimized for the package they're in than the aftermarket, and are warranteed. It's ridiculous that they would put things like 305 wide Sport Cup 2s (which are only really good for track duty, certainly not a good daily tire) on a car that's incapable of using that immense grip without having to take frequent breaks. Again, either make it a track capable car or don't. Don't put track equipment on it as standard and then hobble it.

Oh, and yes, the GT350 is worth the premium for the engine and transmission alone, along with the stupendous brakes and aforementioned OEM trans and diff coolers. It's a very special car. The PP2 is a close but no cigar, although could've been quite special, IMO.

You don’t put $500 track tires with limited street utility and tread life on an everyday driver and then say “we weren’t looking for full track capability”. You don’t buy an engagement ring, book a reception hall and then say “I was just hoping to Netflix and chill”.

Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

cosmo

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TomcatDriver

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mustang1

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BmacIL

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Silver Bullitt

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bluebeastsrt

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2018OFPP1?2

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TomcatDriver

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garagelogic

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BmacIL

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2018OFPP1?2

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bluebeastsrt

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Trackaholic

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martinjlm

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