Did anyone ever do a Perf Pack 2 vs 1LE test?

millhouse said:

If GM came out with a highly desireable car, there is nothing they could do to stop markups. This is purely a case of supply and demand. The SS1LE and ZL1 are made in higher volume and are simply not as desirable as the GT350/GT350R. That’s not to say they aren’t a good value (they are). People pay for exclusivity and uniqueness, and the 5.2 Voodoo engine and fantastic chassis of the GT350 offer that.

Click to expand...

There is plenty you can do. Make enough to satisfy demand.


I have never understood the business case for building a special edition cars in such small numbers that the R&D is split across only a handful of cars and that the demand so outstrips demand that dealers make a killing on ADM. Remember, Ford doesn't make a cent of that ADM. So essentially Ford is throwing away money twice.


I guess at least they are not selling out before they even reach the market, and yet the manufactures pays to fly the automotive press to exotic locations to test them. So they can tell all the people who can't buy them how good they are. This has become crazy common and really ticks me off (looking at you, BMW, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc.).

Grintch said:

There is plenty you can do. Make enough to satisfy demand.


I have never understood the business case for building a special edition cars in such small numbers that the R&D is split across only a handful of cars and that the demand so outstrips demand that dealers make a killing on ADM. Remember, Ford doesn't make a cent of that ADM. So essentially Ford is throwing away money twice.

Click to expand...

You mean like the ZL1 which consistanly sells at or below MSRP? Ford doesn't need to make money on the GT350/R. As for ADM, Ford is throwing dealers a bone...and as long as people continue to buy with ADM, it will continue to occur.

As for producing more, having likely smaller profit margin...and producing more than the ZL1 and 1LE...I don't see why they would, especially considering (until recently) people were gladly paying ADM. The job of the Halo car isn't to make money...it's to advertise the higher production (higher profit) products. Hell, Ford could loose money on the GT350/R and still be on solid ground.

millhouse said:

You mean like the ZL1 which consistanly sells at or below MSRP? Ford doesn't need to make money on the GT350/R. As for ADM, Ford is throwing dealers a bone...and as long as people continue to buy with ADM, it will continue to occur.

As for producing more, having likely smaller profit margin...and producing more than the ZL1 and 1LE...I don't see why they would, especially considering (until recently) people were gladly paying ADM. The job of the Halo car isn't to make money...it's to advertise the higher production (higher profit) products. Hell, Ford could loose money on the GT350/R and still be on solid ground.

Click to expand...

Ha GM could sell Camaros at half price and still make money #MESDIANrentalcarking

thehunterooo said:

Ha GM could sell Camaros at half price and still make money #MESDIANrentalcarking

Click to expand...

ATP! ATP! ATP! :lol:

On a side note, I just visited that cesspool of a website and they are now arguing that the GT350R got it's ass kicked by the ZL1 around a track by a whopping 0.39 seconds and is a failure because the ZL1 is (get this) a “Grand Touring Car” . They claim the GT350R now is only a true competitor to the ZL1 1LE. You can’t make this shit up! :lol:

Oh, and they are now claiming the reason 0.39 second ass kicking wasn’t worse was because the ZL1 had worn tires. I can't stop reading the ignorance. It's too much fun. :cheers:

millhouse said:

ATP! ATP! ATP! :lol:

On a side note, I just visited that cesspool of a website and they are now arguing that the GT350R got it's ass kicked by the ZL1 around a track by a whopping 0.39 seconds and is a failure because the ZL1 is (get this) a “Grand Touring Car” . They claim the GT350R now is only a true competitor to the ZL1 1LE. You can’t make this shit up! :lol:

Oh, and they are now claiming the reason 0.39 second ass kicking wasn’t worse was because the ZL1 had worn tires. I can't stop reading the ignorance. It's too much fun. :cheers:

Click to expand...

Yup they do that because there is tons of ammunition in their hands! If GT350R had given the ZL1 a smack down while Motortrends comparison ( Performance Metric’s), then they would have been bunch of silent sheeps! I am really hoping the PP2 and GT500 delivers! Ford also updated the GT350’s and maybe the R is faster than a ZL1 now.Its all up to Ford now to deliver up to customer expectations not requirements lol!

millhouse said:

ATP! ATP! ATP! :lol:

On a side note, I just visited that cesspool of a website and they are now arguing that the GT350R got it's ass kicked by the ZL1 around a track by a whopping 0.39 seconds and is a failure because the ZL1 is (get this) a “Grand Touring Car” . They claim the GT350R now is only a true competitor to the ZL1 1LE. You can’t make this shit up! :lol:

Oh, and they are now claiming the reason 0.39 second ass kicking wasn’t worse was because the ZL1 had worn tires. I can't stop reading the ignorance. It's too much fun. :cheers:

Click to expand...

Interesting. Pretty sure I read the same stuff and the that the tone of the discussion was more along the lines of “why did Ford target the Z28 in it’s last year and not see the ZL1 off Alpha coming?” Different eyes, different interpretations I guess.

millhouse said:

You mean like the ZL1 which consistanly sells at or below MSRP? Ford doesn't need to make money on the GT350/R. As for ADM, Ford is throwing dealers a bone...and as long as people continue to buy with ADM, it will continue to occur.

As for producing more, having likely smaller profit margin...and producing more than the ZL1 and 1LE...I don't see why they would, especially considering (until recently) people were gladly paying ADM. The job of the Halo car isn't to make money...it's to advertise the higher production (higher profit) products. Hell, Ford could loose money on the GT350/R and still be on solid ground.

Click to expand...

Yes, getting the car at or below MSRP is another big plus for the ZL1. I was seeing multiple ZL1 1LE at my local dealers. While my local Ford dealers never had multiple GT350's, and I never even saw a GT350R.

People paying ADM doesn't make Ford anything. Making/selling twice as many GT350s would make them twice the money, plus they make a bigger profit because the per car development cost is reduced.

martinjlm said:

Interesting. Pretty sure I read the same stuff and the that the tone of the discussion was more along the lines of “why did Ford target the Z28 in it’s last year and not see the ZL1 off Alpha coming?” Different eyes, different interpretations I guess.

Click to expand...

You guys are stock on why Ford targeted Z28, but what about the 5th gen SS1LE? That car was out 3 years prior to S550, and Ford did nothing absolutely nada to target an SS1LE with their upcoming GTPP. Instead they gave a bullshit comparison to a base Boss 302! I mean if the base Boss was already faster than the Fifth Gen SS1LE, by all means go ahead but that was not the case. I still can’t understand how Ford let that go.

Even now they are claiming PP2 to be not a track focused car with the lack of cooling because they have the most expensive GT350 out there for track enthusiasts. To me, it’s just a game they are playing. Since sales are good and customers don’t give a damn let’s just continue banking money.

martinjlm said:

Interesting. Pretty sure I read the same stuff and the that the tone of the discussion was more along the lines of “why did Ford target the Z28 in it’s last year and not see the ZL1 off Alpha coming?” Different eyes, different interpretations I guess.

Click to expand...

That's because you are ignore the ignorance. Look again and you'll see all of the idiotic comments.

Grintch said:

Yes, getting the car at or below MSRP is another big plus for the ZL1. I was seeing multiple ZL1 1LE at my local dealers. While my local Ford dealers never had multiple GT350's, and I never even saw a GT350R.

People paying ADM doesn't make Ford anything. Making/selling twice as many GT350s would make them twice the money, plus they make a bigger profit because the per car development cost is reduced.

Click to expand...

It doesn’t quite work that way. The voodoo engine is much more expensive and has much more warranty costs associated. Making more GT350’s just drives down demand and makes the vehicle less of a halo car without the profits. Those carbon Fiber wheels on the R's aren't free.

The funny thing is, the people I see bitch most about Fords ADM are diehard GM folks who would never buy a Ford product in the first place. They can’t stand that people would pay more than what the manufacturer recommended. If the ADM wasn’t justified, you would have seen prices taper off after the first year. But here we are 3 model years in and we are now finally starting to see prices fall somewhat.

ALUSA said:

You guys are stock on why Ford targeted Z28, but what about the 5th gen SS1LE? That car was out 3 years prior to S550, and Ford did nothing absolutely nada to target an SS1LE with their upcoming GTPP. Instead they gave a bullshit comparison to a base Boss 302! I mean if the base Boss was already faster than the Fifth Gen SS1LE, by all means go ahead but that was not the case. I still can’t understand how Ford let that go.

Even now they are claiming PP2 to be not a track focused car with the lack of cooling because they have the most expensive GT350 out there for track enthusiasts. To me, it’s just a game they are playing. Since sales are good and customers don’t give a damn let’s just continue banking money.

Click to expand...

The take rate on the MY15-17 GTPP was something around 30%....huge numbers. Ford hit the nail on the head with their target audience for the performance pack price an options. Most people don’t track their cars, nor will they ever track their cars. They simply want something that performs marginally better and has bigger/better brakes and a few upgraded goodies to say they have the faster model. Ford knows this, and as long as people continue to buy the I can’t find any fault with their reasoning. Their job is to make money for their shareholders, not to appease magazine audiences.

millhouse said:

That's because you are ignore the ignorance. Look again and you'll see all of the idiotic comments.

Click to expand...

I don't ignore it. Well, maybe sometimes.... I just don't respond to it. Just like there are some things over here I choose not to respond to. I'm on both groups to learn and help, not keyboard-crusade. I do have my moments, but I try to throttle that back as much as possible.

On balance there are more people over there posting that

1. Ford had every opportunity to predict the ZL1 was coming
2. Ford had a couple opportunities to best the ZL1 but didn't
3. Assuming Ford does it correctly, GT500 will outperform the ZL1, maybe even the ZL1 1LE. Most will be shocked and disappointed if it doesn't.

Some of the bickering over there between diehard brand loyalists is just that, not at all the overall tone of the thread.

martinjlm said:

I don't ignore it. Well, maybe sometimes.... I just don't respond to it. Just like there are some things over here I choose not to respond to. I'm on both groups to learn and help, not keyboard-crusade. I do have my moments, but I try to throttle that back as much as possible.

On balance there are more people over there posting that

1. Ford had every opportunity to predict the ZL1 was coming
2. Ford had a couple opportunities to best the ZL1 but didn't
3. Assuming Ford does it correctly, GT500 will outperform the ZL1, maybe even the ZL1 1LE. Most will be shocked and disappointed if it doesn't.

Some of the bickering over there between diehard brand loyalists is just that, not at all the overall tone of the thread.

Click to expand...

There are consistently 3-4 posters over there that are hard to ignore with their bias and it gives the entire site a bad name...but is quite honestly the only reason I read it ;).

When the ZL1 narrowly beat the GT350R on the track most were claiming a huge victory as the two cars are similarly priced and therefore direct competition. When the ZL1 1LE came out, the narrative changed and the ZL1 1LE is now the direct competition to the GT350R and the ZL1 is now only a "Grand Touring" vehicle that beat Fords "track" vehicle. Hell, many still think the SS 1LE barely loses to the GT350R.

I love the rhetoric, but hate the ignorance (not at all directed at you). I have a feeling if I opened an account I would be swiftly given the boot...which is too bad.

millhouse said:

There are consistently 3-4 posters over there that are hard to ignore with their bias and it gives the entire site a bad name...but is quite honestly the only reason I read it ;).

When the ZL1 narrowly beat the GT350R on the track most were claiming a huge victory as the two cars are similarly priced and therefore direct competition. When the ZL1 1LE came out, the narrative changed and the ZL1 1LE is now the direct competition to the GT350R and the ZL1 is now only a "Grand Touring" vehicle that beat Fords "track" vehicle. Hell, many still think the SS 1LE barely loses to the GT350R.

I love the rhetoric, but hate the ignorance (not at all directed at you). I have a feeling if I opened an account I would be swiftly given the boot...which is too bad.

Click to expand...

I miss MESDIAN :(

Nothing like being called poor.

martinjlm said:

I don't ignore it. Well, maybe sometimes.... I just don't respond to it. Just like there are some things over here I choose not to respond to. I'm on both groups to learn and help, not keyboard-crusade. I do have my moments, but I try to throttle that back as much as possible.

On balance there are more people over there posting that

1. Ford had every opportunity to predict the ZL1 was coming
2. Ford had a couple opportunities to best the ZL1 but didn't
3. Assuming Ford does it correctly, GT500 will outperform the ZL1, maybe even the ZL1 1LE. Most will be shocked and disappointed if it doesn't.

Some of the bickering over there between diehard brand loyalists is just that, not at all the overall tone of the thread.

Click to expand...

According to Millhouse, as long as Ford is selling enough Mustang Ecoboosts and GT's, they don't give a damn about the competition. This includes the GT500. They are making more than enough profit so why would they care about the 1% of customers out there who would actually track and compete with their cars. Millhouse is on to something. I say lets close all the VS Threads in these forums because its pointless. Ford is not competing, and doesn't need to. Lets carry on.

ALUSA said:

According to Millhouse, as long as Ford is selling enough Mustang Ecoboosts and GT's, they don't give a damn about the competition. This includes the GT500. They are making more than enough profit so why would they care about the 1% of customers out there who would actually track and compete with their cars. Millhouse is on to something. I say lets close all the VS Threads in these forums because its pointless. Ford is not competing, and doesn't need to. Lets carry on.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but it's been obvious that Ford doesn't care about the 1% (else the mustang would have coolers out the wazoo)...and quite honestly, can you blame them? If I were a shareholder I sure as hell wouldn't.