Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

Norm Peterson said:

I get that. But if you're flat-out not interested in any of their other cars (except possibly a Corvette) why should you be forced to drive something that there's about zero chance of you buying at this point? All that does is waste everybody's time.


Norm

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It sounds weird to me but GM hasn't really been making sense when it comes to pushing Camaro sales in a while. Maybe they want to see who really is interested in a Camaro and not just looking for a joyride. Either way that kind of attitude is contributing to the lack of car sales. Let people drive the damn car. Let people have fun in it. They need to stop the arrogance and start moving cars out. Because meanwhile over in the Ford camp they're pushing Mustangs on everyone. But the dealerships are also getting heavy incentives from Ford to push Mustangs, especially the EB. GM needs to give their dealerships a reason to get those numbers up. Because telling someone they can't test drive a Camaro until they test drive the traverse is about the dumbest shit I ever heard.

4V Mayhem said:

telling someone they can't test drive a Camaro until they test drive the traverse is about the dumbest shit I ever heard.

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I wouldn't be so mad about it if GM had more enthusiast options like Ford (Focus RS, Fiesta and Focus ST, Fusion Sport, Taurus SHO, etc.). All they really have is the Camaro and Corvette (which they won't let anyone touch) and a bunch of econoboxes... they don't even have the SS anymore (which is a prime example of the outcome when a great car has a marketing failure)

martinjlm said:

EXACTLY my point. As for the needing to stop far away from the stop light, that's not a universal issue. It depends a lot on how the intersection is constructed. Most intersections present ZERO issues in my Camaro. I had an HHR that had much worse stoplight visibility issues than my Camaro has ever had. There are some intersections where the stoplights are placed where the view is compromised. I simply pull up to where I can still see the GREEN light. No need to see the YELLOW or the RED if I am stopped. In these situations I look around and....SHOCKER!!!....I'm lined up exactly with whomever is to my left or right. They can probably see the RED and the YELLOW. I can't. Don't care, since I don't need those lights.

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Consumer reports

" But as a daily driver, you might want to think twice because outward visibility is atrocious."

"However, the packaging suffers from overt flaws that may turn away some buyers. Visibility remains dreadful, making it hard to see stoplights, merge or park."

I test drove the camaro in the south and had major issues at stoplights. Speaking from experience, the stoplights in Michigan (specifically Lansing) are much more restricting.

If you can't see the Red and Yellow light, you are too close to the stoplight. You have to adjust how you drive the car to compensate for it's visibility shortcomings.

Again, I'm not saying you can't work around them...but it's the only car in it's class that has these big of issues. Some of you don't seem to understand, while the camaro is derivable, the visibility issues means you have to change the way you drive the car compared to others...and not in a good way.

in all fairness, my mustang has that problem too at some intersections, and i'm not even up to the line. A few times a week i'm having to duck to see the green.

Chad11491 said:

in all fairness, my mustang has that problem too at some intersections, and i'm not even up to the line. A few times a week i'm having to duck to see the green.

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Go test drive a camaro at the same intersection. If you are having an issue with the mustang at that intersection, you won't be able to duck down and even see the stoplight at all with the camaro. You will have to plan on stopping well short of the stoplight. And for those that don't think that is an issue either...wait until you take off from the stoplight and don't see the car running the red light because you are blinded by the cars that are pulled up closer in the adjacent lanes.

Again, the poor visibility changes how you have to drive the car.

millhouse said:

Consumer reports

" But as a daily driver, you might want to think twice because outward visibility is atrocious."

"However, the packaging suffers from overt flaws that may turn away some buyers. Visibility remains dreadful, making it hard to see stoplights, merge or park."

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Consumer Reports has a built-in bias that favors bland utility that I don't think they'll ever be able to shake. So it's no surprise that they'd strongly feel the difference in overall outward visibility when the cars they favor tend to be imported 5-passenger FWD sedans with much more glass.

I noticed the difference between my S197 when I got into that 1SS, but it was nowhere near being a deal-breaker. If anything, it was a smaller step, S197 to 1SS than it was going from a '95 Mazda 626 to the S197.

Different physiques probably matter and would likely require more efforts at compensation from some people. If you're long-torso'd, have the seat back a bit, insist on sitting bolt upright, or if you have the seat height cranked up, you'll have greater difficulties in seeing stoplights than if you're shorter and incline the seat back down just a little (not the semi-reclining positions you might see on certain car modification genres). On the other hand, as long as you can pull up close enough to the intersection to trip any traffic demand sensing, there's no harm in "shallow-staging" the traffic light a little. Yeah, it might be a bad idea to practice shaving your RT at the traffic lights when your sideways visibility is compromised by other traffic (though a truck or SUV is going to do that to you anyway).

If you can't see the Red and Yellow light, you are too close to the stoplight.

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I'm with James on this one. A driver only needs to see those lights when approaching the intersection, still moving, and the yellow advises him/her to stop if that can be done safely. Once I know I'm going to have to stop, I don't need them any more - and quite frankly I pretty much stop consciously seeing the entire traffic light device once I've made the necessary decision to stop. It's already told me everything it possibly can and all I need to know.

What I noticed most, outward-visibility-wise, is the thickness of the A-pillars. But that's not a situation unique to the Camaro's styling, and there are some pretty strong reasons for them being that big. That's arguably a more commonly-encountered encroachment on your field of view, but people do seem to have adapted (even if it means shifting your head laterally in some cases).


Norm

Norm Peterson said:

On the other hand, as long as you can pull up close enough to the intersection to trip any traffic demand sensing, there's no harm in "shallow-staging" the traffic light a little.

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In my part of the country, red light runners are everywhere. The timers on the lights even allow for a slight red to green delay....and people still regularly run through the red into the opposing green. Maybe I'll post the a video later of a tractor trailer slowing down at a red and running right through it. Idiots are everywhere.

"Shallow-Staging" at a stoplight greatly reduces visibility to see runners on your blind side. Now I personally (nearly) always allow the blind side car to go before me and (nearly) always delay my forward acceleration until I'm sure there are no runners. Everyone else however does not drive the same, and again...stopping short at a stoplight can absolutely be detrimental.

millhouse said:

In my part of the country, red light runners are everywhere. The timers on the lights even allow for a slight red to green delay....and people still regularly run through the red into the opposing green.

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IOW, those runners have learned to take your delayed green for themselves. Unintended consequence, for sure. But not unexpected.

"Shallow-Staging" at a stoplight greatly reduces visibility to see runners on your blind side. Now I personally (nearly) always allow the blind side car to go before me and (nearly) always delay my forward acceleration until I'm sure there are no runners.

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People should probably be doing these things anyway, no matter if it is a muscle car that they're driving.

...stopping short at a stoplight can absolutely be detrimental.

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How so? I'm not talking about doing any throw-out-all-the-anchors kind of stop here, just that on any normal stop you don't intentionally pull all the way up to the painted line when doing so would interfere with seeing the green. If your the second car in line or further back, the problem either isn't there to begin with because it's a car that's in front of you or it remains because it's a big tall SUV or truck instead. Either way, you still have to wait for them to start moving . . .


Norm

millhouse said:

Consumer reports

" But as a daily driver, you might want to think twice because outward visibility is atrocious."

"However, the packaging suffers from overt flaws that may turn away some buyers. Visibility remains dreadful, making it hard to see stoplights, merge or park."

I test drove the camaro in the south and had major issues at stoplights. Speaking from experience, the stoplights in Michigan (specifically Lansing) are much more restricting.

If you can't see the Red and Yellow light, you are too close to the stoplight. You have to adjust how you drive the car to compensate for it's visibility shortcomings.

Again, I'm not saying you can't work around them...but it's the only car in it's class that has these big of issues. Some of you don't seem to understand, while the camaro is derivable, the visibility issues means you have to change the way you drive the car compared to others...and not in a good way.

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millhouse said:

Go test drive a camaro at the same intersection. If you are having an issue with the mustang at that intersection, you won't be able to duck down and even see the stoplight at all with the camaro. You will have to plan on stopping well short of the stoplight. And for those that don't think that is an issue either...wait until you take off from the stoplight and don't see the car running the red light because you are blinded by the cars that are pulled up closer in the adjacent lanes.

Again, the poor visibility changes how you have to drive the car.

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A lot of reports have also criticized lots of flaws in the Mustang. Flaws that I never once noticed. I also never noticed a problem with the Camaro anywhere near this degree. I think reports tend to exaggerate the issues that some cars have. I mean, if it was that much of a hazard I would think we'd be seeing lots and lots of accidents and traffic incidents with the Camaro related to lack of visibility.

The 6thGen Camaro is a great performing car that a lot of people like to talk about, especially if the person posting leans GM, but very few actually buy. That’s why you see so many magazine racers. While not as robust as times past, the Mustang is still selling well and offers great performance, even if it is outgunned by the Camaro. The 2019 refresh is going to do the Camaro no favors in the sales department, IMHO.

4V Mayhem said:

A lot of reports have also criticized lots of flaws in the Mustang. Flaws that I never once noticed. I also never noticed a problem with the Camaro anywhere near this degree. I think reports tend to exaggerate the issues that some cars have. I mean, if it was that much of a hazard I would think we'd be seeing lots and lots of accidents and traffic incidents with the Camaro related to lack of visibility.

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Every car has its flaws. Reports on the camaro aren’t exaggerating anything, they are giving an open opinion of what the car is compared to other vehicles. They point it out because it’s their job. As it stands, the mustang and challenger/charger don’t get near the amount of criticism for visibility. You choose to ignore the visibility issues and work around them. Stopping short of a stoplight is one. Adjusting mirrors differently is another. Relying solely on the backup camera…another. Blind spot sensors being mandatory…another. All of these are concessions or adjustments that have to be made to drive the car safely where others don’t require such. To say the Camaro doesn’t have visibility issues is pure ignorance…one that is common with camaro owners. People don’t seem to be able to accept the flaws in their vehicles…or that they made concessions when purchasing. Put away the pride.

How this for a concession…I chose the mustang knowing it was slower than the camaro. When you put away the brand loyalty and persistent need to defend your purchase choice…it’s easy to admit flaws.

Norm Peterson said:

How so? I'm not talking about doing any throw-out-all-the-anchors kind of stop here, just that on any normal stop you don't intentionally pull all the way up to the painted line when doing so would interfere with seeing the green. If your the second car in line or further back, the problem either isn't there to begin with because it's a car that's in front of you or it remains because it's a big tall SUV or truck instead. Either way, you still have to wait for them to start moving . . .


Norm

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Again Norm, blind side red light runners...first at a light. I curse every-time a car pulls up past the stop bar, as it immediately blocks your cross traffic vision.

millhouse said:

Every car has its flaws. Reports on the camaro aren’t exaggerating anything, they are giving an open opinion of what the car is compared to other vehicles. They point it out because it’s their job. As it stands, the mustang and challenger/charger don’t get near the amount of criticism for visibility. You choose to ignore the visibility issues and work around them. Stopping short of a stoplight is one. Adjusting mirrors differently is another. Relying solely on the backup camera…another. Blind spot sensors being mandatory…another. All of these are concessions or adjustments that have to be made to drive the car safely where others don’t require such. To say the Camaro doesn’t have visibility issues is pure ignorance…one that is common with camaro owners. People don’t seem to be able to accept the flaws in their vehicles…or that they made concessions when purchasing. Put away the pride.

How this for a concession…I chose the mustang knowing it was slower than the camaro. When you put away the brand loyalty and persistent need to defend your purchase choice…it’s easy to admit flaws.

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I love the denial of the visibility issue by Camaro owners and the “you get used to it” mantra. If you lose a tooth, you get used to it not being there, or work around it, but it does not mean you don’t have a gap in your teeth that should have never been there!

What gets me is when they say..

"The visibility is fine if you use the cameras"

..hint:

If you need an external camera to safely operate the vehicle..the visibility isn't fine.

garagelogic said:

I love the denial of the visibility issue by Camaro owners and the “you get used to it” mantra. If you lose a tooth, you get used to it not being there, or work around it, but it does not mean you don’t have a gap in your teeth that should have never been there!

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That's why I like the phrase..."you get numb to it" better. It's always there...and every now and then something will happen that reminds you of such.

1320' said:

What gets me is when they say..

"The visibility is fine if you use the cameras"

..hint:

If you need an external camera to safely operate the vehicle..the visibility isn't fine.

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Haha, indeed.