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Meth Injected and Whipple Charged

v8ter

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As I pointed out earlier, stating that your lambda values in your logs are not changing pre and post install of the meth kit is not a good thing. I have tuned many 93 octane + straight methanol injection setups. you do NOT want to let your PCM pull back fuel once you start spraying, if you do the math of the "sum of the parts" of your fueling, you will find by letting the PCM pull fuel, the 93 octane part of your fuel, you are negating a good chunk of the benefit of the methanol injection.

There is almost NO difference in power potential, knock resistance, for methanol between about 0.65 to 0.75 lambda. Methanol cools cylinder temps even better than gasoline and e85, so running MORE methanol and giving up a tiny bit of power by running say a 0.70 lambda is a much better tune and will give much of the same benefits as a e85 setup if enough meth is run. There is a significant drop off in cooling ability and knock resistance going leaner than 0.75.

Lets work through a sum of the parts example. Setup is a 72lb injector whipple, with a single 12gph nozzle.

Injector duty cycles I typically see are mid 70's, so lets use 75% for this calculation

Meth duty cycle of the pump is very close to 100% unless you mess with the pump, so we will use 100%.

8 injectors, 72lb per hour each, converts to 12.24gph each, running at 75% duty cycle is a total of 73.44gph of 93 octane fuel to the engine.

A single 12gph meth nozzle is just that, 12gph of methanol fuel being delivered to the engine.

So based on 85.44gph of total fuel being delivered to the engine, that is 14% methanol and 86% 93 octane. You can now do math on octane, lambda, etc on that mix.

14% of 0.70 lambda (where I tune meth) and 86% of 0.80 lambda fuels means you should be targeting a lambda of 0.78.

Now if the tune is left alone, and commands 0.80 and sees 0.78 on the widebands, it will pull 2.5% of 93 octane out to move things back to commanded of 0.80. Now you are running a 93 octane lambda of 0.82 and methanol lambda of 0.70. That 0.82 is too lean for gasoline, and you are starting to negate some of the benefits of the methanol. Instead of having all the extra octane and cooling to run more timing, you are using some of the benefit just to suppress some of pre-ignition of running too lean of a gasoline lambda.

The issue becomes much more dramatic the more methanol you spray. I used to run dual 12gph nozzles on my last whipple setup, which was around 20% of my total fuel. For a 3-500ml single nozzle, this is probably a non issue, and especially if just being used as a bandaid for shitting 91 octane fuel. But for heavier users, I still recommend making your tune a flex fuel tune so that when it sees fuel trims go active it adjusts the stoich value in the tune and doesn't try to pull fuel out, and adding some safety items should the meth fail.

Easiest and best I have always used is the AEM flow gauge, which will record 10-15 flow sessions so it has a baseline of what your system flows, if it sees flow drop below the pre-recorded flow rates, it has 12v and ground triggers that can be used for any device. I plumb a on/off solenoid into the bypass vacuum line on the blower, and the ground for the solenoid is the trigger from the AEM gauge. If the meth flow rate drops, the solenoid goes to open position and all boost holding the bypass valve on the blower closed is let off, and you will loose all boost.
Two questions? First, whats whipple recommendation on spraying meth through the blower because of the coatings of the rotors?

Second - If I want to use it for cooling purposes only and not taking advantage of the octane increase and not have it to add timing, is there any way safe to do this in case the system fails to spray?
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If I was spraying a meth, I would want to see my lambda change. I also wouldn't want the meth to cause the ecu to deliver the wrong amount of 93. For the reason toosoonjunior stated.

This is exactly why open loop mode is used. I would get the fuel dialed in. Disable long term fuel trims and MAF adaption. This would make it run in an open loop at WOT. The amount of 93 would be exactly what you want it to be.
 

TooSoonJunior

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Two questions? First, whats whipple recommendation on spraying meth through the blower because of the coatings of the rotors?

Second - If I want to use it for cooling purposes only and not taking advantage of the octane increase and not have it to add timing, is there any way safe to do this in case the system fails to spray?
Every time you call Whipple, you will get a different answer on first question. There is ZERO effect on the coatings of the rotors, there is discussion about fluid getting into the bearings, as they are not sealed. I can tell you after 10 years of a ton of guys running methanol through the rotor packs, I have never had someone have a bearing failure that was tied to spraying meth. I wont say itll never happen, but cant see how it would cause a failure. And the maximum cooling effect is seen when spraying through the blower, it closes up the clearances and brings the efficiency way up, usually see 1-2psi increase in boost just from that alone.

IF you want pure cooling effect of IATs and of the blower itself, spray pre-blower and use a 20/80 mix of meth and water. water doesn't burn, has zero effect on fueling, but cools everything down. the small 20% mix of meth is so small, you wouldn't have any issues if it stopped spraying fueling wise, you would just see a spike in temps which your tune can handle by pulling timing.
 

v8ter

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Every time you call Whipple, you will get a different answer on first question. There is ZERO effect on the coatings of the rotors, there is discussion about fluid getting into the bearings, as they are not sealed. I can tell you after 10 years of a ton of guys running methanol through the rotor packs, I have never had someone have a bearing failure that was tied to spraying meth. I wont say itll never happen, but cant see how it would cause a failure. And the maximum cooling effect is seen when spraying through the blower, it closes up the clearances and brings the efficiency way up, usually see 1-2psi increase in boost just from that alone.

IF you want pure cooling effect of IATs and of the blower itself, spray pre-blower and use a 20/80 mix of meth and water. water doesn't burn, has zero effect on fueling, but cools everything down. the small 20% mix of meth is so small, you wouldn't have any issues if it stopped spraying fueling wise, you would just see a spike in temps which your tune can handle by pulling timing.
What kind of water should be used and what brand meth kit that is affordable could I use, I dont know if it makes sense but if Im going to use it to cool down Ait then it doesn’t have to be necessarily the best of the best?
 

ahl395

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What kind of water should be used and what brand meth kit that is affordable could I use, I dont know if it makes sense but if Im going to use it to cool down Ait then it doesn’t have to be necessarily the best of the best?
I know your question was directed at TooSoonJunior but I figured I would offer my opinion too

Distilled water should be the only thing used if you're mixing yourself. Or you can buy pre-mixed 50/50 "Boost Juice". It is cheaper though to mix your own distilled water and VP M1 methanol.

A good system that isnt too expensive I would recommend AEM or Snow Performance. If you wanted to step up I'd recommend Alky Control.
 

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I have a little experience with Methanol on a pushrod 331 with a Vortech. Installed a Snow Kit and changed the tune. With Methanol and a tune adjustment the car picked up a little over 80 horsepower to the tires.

While I don’t think I would run it on a car that is a Race/Street car. What I mean by that is a car that is used primarily at the track with limited street use. I think a street car that runs 93 or pump E85 would definitely benefit from it. With proper safe guards and proper tuning… Any blown vehicle would benefit..
 
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I have a little experience with Methanol on a pushrod 331 with a Vortech. Installed a Snow Kit and changed the tune. With Methanol and a tune adjustment the car picked up a little over 80 horsepower to the tires.

While I don’t think I would run it on a car that is a Race/Street car. What I mean by that is a car that is used primarily at the track with limited street use. I think a street car that runs 93 or pump E85 would definitely benefit from it. With proper safe guards and proper tuning… Any blown vehicle would benefit..
What size nozzle were you running and what tune did you change to? I really believe I am going to have to leave my Whipple tune for a different tune as much as I don't want to.
 

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The Teflon coating on the rotor packs will deteriorate over time with or without meth, but it doesn’t have any effect on performance. The needle bearings the shafts of the rotors ride on are high temp grease packed and there is no way possible meth/water would ever make it into that area. I would not tune for or rely on meth as a fuel supplement as it should only be used for its cooling properties, but it will make additional power as a result of the cooler/denser air charge it creates. Start with 50/50 mix, but play with your w/m ratio and see what works best for your car. Aem kit works well and can be found pretty cheap on amazon.
 

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What size nozzle were you running and what tune did you change to? I really believe I am going to have to leave my Whipple tune for a different tune as much as I don't want to.
It has been a few years since I had the Fox car. I think it was the 375ml nozzle. I self tuned the car with a Anderson PMS.… I would love to have something like the PMS for the Coyote platform.. Of course today’s ECU’s are far more advanced.
 
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I know your question was directed at TooSoonJunior but I figured I would offer my opinion too

Distilled water should be the only thing used if you're mixing yourself. Or you can buy pre-mixed 50/50 "Boost Juice". It is cheaper though to mix your own distilled water and VP M1 methanol.

A good system that isnt too expensive I would recommend AEM or Snow Performance. If you wanted to step up I'd recommend Alky Control.
I have a 5 gallon tub of Methanol and also have the Boost Juice.

It has been a few years since I had the Fox car. I think it was the 375ml nozzle. I self tuned the car with a Anderson PMS.… I would love to have something like the PMS for the Coyote platform.. Of course today’s ECU’s are far more advanced.
There is someone on here who is currently running 93 octance, a 9gph nozzle (625ml) and 3.5" pulley with Whipple's tune and he has not seen any knock. His system is not a progressive system like mine either. My car is currently getting the Gen 3 installed and Whipple is going to be working on the tune for me. I should have results tomorrow.
 

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"I would setup the tune to be a flex fuel tune so that when it sees the fuel trims jump 10-15% at WOT, it assumes there is a higher ethanol content and starts to adjust the target stoich."

Does anyone have a link, or pointers on how this is done with HP Tuners?
 
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V8Venom

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So the Gen 3 is installed, but Whipple would not tune for the meth system. They tried to but apparently it was fighting their tune too much. So being that I am on wonderful 91 and the 3.625" pulley they only tested the car with the 3.75" pulley installed as the car was making too much boost for 91 octane. The car made 706/530, which is actually less than what I made when I was on 93 with the Gen 2. I was told that my torque converter is slipping and I am losing 7-9% power so technically I should be making 50-60 more hp. I can run Boostane or Octanium and put the 3.625" pulley back on, but I am going to do a few different tests before I drop in pulley size.

Worst part is when I got back home the car was experiencing knock again, although I was told there was zero knock on the dyno. The car feels fine, but ultimately this has been a very disappointing experience as I was hoping Whipple would be able to fix this issue. I have found a few tuners who will tune my car for the meth, but I am not going to name drop just yet. I will keep this thread updated as best I can with some results, but I believe when all is said and done the car can be up in the 770-780 range. :thumbsup:
 
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I feel bad for your horse shit California gas.

Man id be pissed if your making less than the gen2 setup and tossed a bunch of money at it for the upgraded blower.

Good luck sorting the rest of the car out to make use of the gen3.
 
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I feel bad for your horse shit California gas.

Man id be pissed if your making less than the gen2 setup and tossed a bunch of money at it for the upgraded blower.

Good luck sorting the rest of the car out to make use of the gen3.
Yea I’m definitely not happy at the moment, but I know their dyno reads low too. The car does feel good and mid-range power feels stronger, but the tune is just not cutting it currently. I will get it sorted out and once I do I’ll share the results.
 

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I see some Snow stage one kits on Ebay for like $290 part 201. I also see some Stage 2 kits for $380, part number 20010. Im guessing a controller is necessary with these kits, if so, whats the point of the stage 1?
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