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Is sodium the cause of LSPI and ecoboom?

ElAviator72

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I think it has something to do with tuning the car past its limits and tolerances.
Except that the Ecoboom has happened to untuned forum members...mostly 2015 cars (a smattering of 2016s, though). Automatic and stick.

One of the tuners came out and said that it appears that Ford took some of the edge off of the factory tune in 2016 (an attempt to reign in the ecoboom?). This would confirm owner experience (mine in particular-see my sig) and car magazine tests that have shown that the 2015 Ecoboost was a quicker car :tsk:
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oesman

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AFAIK most average to high end oils don't have any significant sodium content. They must have used some really crappy oils in their tests. Magnesium and calcium are used a lot, but not sodium. Just use a decent synthetic if sodium is a worry.
 
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RubyRed15

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AFAIK most average to high end oils don't have any significant sodium content. They must have used some really crappy oils in their tests. Magnesium and calcium are used a lot, but not sodium. Just use a decent synthetic if sodium is a worry.
Documentation?
 

oesman

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Documentation?
Sodium is the rarest of the detergents. I'm into oil analysis and frequent a board where we post lab results of oils including "virgin" reports on unused oil. Not sure on the rules for linking, I can PM you if you're curious and want to read more. I'm actually having a hard time even finding a report with any non-trace amounts of sodium. I just looked through like 50.

Also in the article they do show the synthetic as a contrast:

“What we saw was that with the factory ECU tuning there was definitely a noticeable difference in the knock levels of the engine when running high Sodium and Calcium levels in a mineral based oil as seen in the top graph on the yellow line. The bottom graph shows the same engine calibration, but with a synthetic blend using only Calcium and at moderate levels.
Really curious what the mineral oil they ran was. You're fine with any normal synthetic stuff. If you're really paranoid use a race oil, they have the least detergent. Just have to change it a lot.

EDIT: After a little more research I found some labs showing some Valvoline products, and a lot of store brand oils have sodium.
 
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RubyRed15

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Sodium is the rarest of the detergents. I'm into oil analysis and frequent a board where we post lab results of oils including "virgin" reports on unused oil. Not sure on the rules for linking, I can PM you if you're curious and want to read more. I'm actually having a hard time even finding a report with any non-trace amounts of sodium. I just looked through like 50.

Also in the article they do show the synthetic as a contrast:



Really curious what the mineral oil they ran was. You're fine with any normal synthetic stuff. If you're really paranoid use a race oil, they have the least detergent. Just have to change it a lot.
Please do PM. I'm about learning, not proving I'm smarter than the author.

I think they said the oils were all some small market brand I don't recall at the moment.

So you raise another very interesting question - what oil was in the pan in these blown engines?
 

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oesman

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Please do PM. I'm about learning, not proving I'm smarter than the author.

I think they said the oils were all some small market brand I don't recall at the moment.

So you raise another very interesting question - what oil was in the pan in these blown engines?
PM'ed.

Yea it's curious. So far I found lots of the store brands have sodium and some Valvoline products too. Also I now suspect Valvoline makes the store brands. I know they made NAPA's oil at one point for sure.

If I had to guess they used some bulk or store brand oil in the first test. I found an interesting picture in the article. You have to really zoom in, but it looked like only one oil really had sodium in it. The others had trace amounts from the first oil, which they should have done last if their theory was sodium contamination.

https://goo.gl/JapiJu

Plus if I'm reading that right they had the same amount of knock events on non-sodium oil in row 3. So maybe they just have junk fuel?
 
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RubyRed15

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Plus if I'm reading that right they had the same amount of knock events on non-sodium oil in row 3. So maybe they just have junk fuel?
I thought I saw that, too - 5 and 5, right? I couldn't zoom the picture to be certain. Statistically, the theory would surely be invalidated if that's the case.
 

markmurfie

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To add a bit of clarity, detonation occurs when the fuel/air mixture is ignited either simultaneously, or nearly simultaneously by both the spark plug AND another ignition source (can be a hot spot in the cylinder, but is usually increased heat/compression from the initial spark plug-induced ignition event). The key to understanding the danger is knowing detonation produces two flame fronts/pressure waves in the cylinder that collide and produce a sudden, potentially catastrophic rise in cylinder pressure accompanied by a characteristic ping or knock sound. If left unchecked, detonation will destroy your engine just as effectively as pre-ignition, as each subsequent ignition event is influenced by the increased heat generated from the previous.

knock sensor filter windows are set for things like 15*-40* ATDC. Spark ignition occurs advanced 0-50* BTDC. Detonation happens in the middle of the flame wave propagation not at the same time spark happens. look up some cylinder pressure charts where they advance spark and induce detonation.

Luckily, our engines are protected from detonation by the computer, which reduces power demand, and thus heat, when it senses a knock event. If everything is working as designed, most of us will never notice detonation beyond a power loss. As mentioned, the computer assumes a certain fuel octane as it manages the engine through these events, which is why it's important to know whatever tune you are running is properly programmed AND that you are using the octane the computer expects.

The ECU has the ability to adapt to higher or lower octanes. OAR

Pre-ignition occurs when the fuel/air mixture ignites prematurely, but it can also generate enough heat to result in detonation. How's that? You may experience a pre-ignition event on one cycle that doesn't destroy the piston, but does heat the piston enough to prompt a detonation event on the next (or subsequent) cycle. This is especially dangerous because the computer may not protect the engine as designed. Detonation usually starts out mild and progresses, giving the computer time to respond and prevent damage. A pre-ignition event may not trigger the computer to reduce power demand, so the subsequent detonation event it causes can easily result in catastrophic failure.

So yes, pre-ignition and detonation can be a devastating one-two punch that causes a dreaded ecoboom.

Fine, a hotter cylinder usually means detonation has a higher chance of happening. It doesnt mean the ECU would not hear that detonation event and deal with it appropriately. There is no way of detecting pre ignition, other than monitoring EGTs and even then its usually too late damage is done.
When told about LSPI being prevented by oil research, I just fine it funny seeing if different oils help prevent detonation, because thats going to help this issue of LSPI. Nothing against researching hypothesis, just the way the hypothesis came about.



GM has been working on an oil standard--called dexos1 Gen 2-- specifically addressing LSPI. Oils meeting this standard also meet or exceed the standard required by Ford for our engines. You can find a list of oils meeting the dexos1 Gen 2 standard here:

http://www.centerforqa.com/dexos-brand2015/



You mean low-speed pre-ignition. :D
No I was referring to the article talking about low speed detonation and what it takes to prevent detonation when in 6 and WOT. Low speed detonation is a well known and well understood process.


Im not saying The authors dumb, or I am smarter. The way the connection between oil and detonation was made just doesnt make logical sense to me.
I also just wanted to warn people that LSPI is a serious thing that can cost you your motor. Do not start experimenting with different oils, unless you are absolutely sure it helps prevent LSPI. Any experimenting you do with detonation should be with fuel octanes and sensitive good condition knock sensors. Buy a set of professional knock ears as well. Do not go to the $14.99 10 minute oil change places. I apologize if the tone of my writing came off the wrong way and offended you. Just trying to help you from making a big mistake based on a article with flawed logic.
 

markmurfie

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How do they do that ? If the car is moving along at 2000 rpm in 6th gear, and you floor it, what will the engine do ?
They have tables based on manifold charge temp and RPM that limit engine load. Tuners are having to raise these to raise boost. I try to warn people I see who don't understand the seriousness of LSPI and how dangerous it is. You are OK to raise the higher RPMS of this table, but some people are lazy or don't understand and just max the entire table.

Please don't quote me on it, but I think the tuning school nonchalant passed over raising these tables as a limit, but didn't say a limit to what.

Pic is from a 3.5L F150.
LSPI.PNG
 

TorqueMan

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Something tells me that if you're leaking enough oil into the combustion chamber to cause LSPI in the first place, that there's bigger problems afoot elsewhere in the engine. I suppose if you blew the right turbo seal, your turbo could hemorrhage oil into the intake...
There is always a quantity of oil in the combustion chamber. Piston rings have a small gap to allow for installation, and they must be lubricated as they slide up and down in the cyinder. The small gap in the ring allows a quantity of the oil meant to lubricate the ring to dribble through into the combustion chamber. Normally this small quantity of oil is not combustible, and remains stuck to the ring(s) and/or top outside edge of the piston where it is shielded from the flame front anyway.

For carbureted and throttle-body/port injected engines, the fuel is largely atomized before entering the cylinder, making any mixing with oil unlikely. Our engines are direct injected, which means raw fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber. The current best guess about LSPI is that when fuel is directly injected into the combustion chamber it can mix with oil, reducing it's viscosity, and encouraging migration around the combustion chamber. Further, this oil-gas mixture is combustible, and it's at a lower octane that just fuel alone, which makes it more susceptible to ignition from the pressure generated during the compression stroke. Should a small globule of this fuel-oil mixture ignite during the compression stroke it can generate enough heat to light off the larger fuel-air mixture that's sitting there waiting for the spark plug to fire.

Ignite the fuel-air charge too early during the compression stroke and boom--you have classic, engine destroying pre-ignition.
 

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There is always a quantity of oil in the combustion chamber. Piston rings have a small gap to allow for installation, and they must be lubricated as they slide up and down in the cyinder. The small gap in the ring allows a quantity of the oil meant to lubricate the ring to dribble through into the combustion chamber. Normally this small quantity of oil is not combustible, and remains stuck to the ring(s) and/or top outside edge of the piston where it is shielded from the flame front anyway.

For carbureted and throttle-body/port injected engines, the fuel is largely atomized before entering the cylinder, making any mixing with oil unlikely. Our engines are direct injected, which means raw fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber. The current best guess about LSPI is that when fuel is directly injected into the combustion chamber it can mix with oil, reducing it's viscosity, and encouraging migration around the combustion chamber. Further, this oil-gas mixture is combustible, and it's at a lower octane that just fuel alone, which makes it more susceptible to ignition from the pressure generated during the compression stroke. Should a small globule of this fuel-oil mixture ignite during the compression stroke it can generate enough heat to light off the larger fuel-air mixture that's sitting there waiting for the spark plug to fire.

Ignite the fuel-air charge too early during the compression stroke and boom--you have classic, engine destroying pre-ignition.
Mobil 1 full synthetic is one of the best non
Conductive oil on the market , and has one of
Highest flame resistance lspi on market
 

H@mmer

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Documentation?
Thank you for continually requesting evidence.
It gets real old seeing anecdotal evidence and tribal "knowledge" (regurgitating marketing BS) being passed as known, scientific fact.
 

mustang1

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... I found an interesting picture in the article. You have to really zoom in, but it looked like only one oil really had sodium in it. The others had trace amounts from the first oil, which they should have done last if their theory was sodium contamination.

https://goo.gl/JapiJu

Plus if I'm reading that right they had the same amount of knock events on non-sodium oil in row 3. So maybe they just have junk fuel?
The picture shows two line items with 5 knock events. If you add the calcium and sodium columns, their total is similar.

Why is it called LSPI ? This term implies that mid / high speed pre-ignition is not an issue.
 

TorqueMan

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Why is it called LSPI ? This term implies that mid / high speed pre-ignition is not an issue.
It's thought that at higher engine RPMs there isn't enough time for the burning fuel-oil droplets to get hot enough to pre-ignite the fuel-air charge.

It's important to note that this phenomenon still isn't fully understood. Tests to determine exactly what causes LSPI are inconclusive; researchers get different results under the same (or very similar) test conditions, which really dorks up the statistics. This complicates development of effective mitigation strategies.

At this point, I would view any specific claims (beyond compliance with one of the industry standards) by an oil manufacturer about LSPI protection as marketing. For example, Amsoil claims that it's Signature Series synthetic oil "achieved 100% protection against LSPI," but there is a footnote which reads, "based on independent testing of AMSOIL Signature Series 5w-30 motor oil in the LSPI engine test as required for the GM dexos 1 Gen 2 specification." In other words, Amsoil's signature series meets the GM dexos 1 Gen 2 LSPI protection standard, along with more than 500 other oils from many different suppliers.
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