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Science is now cancelled? [USERS NOW BANNED FOR POLITICS]

CJJon

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Hello; No, not everyone needs to get the shots. Those who get covid and wind up in hospital for heavy treatment have shown they do not have an immune system that can fight off the infection. They may have benefit from the shots. Pretty sure those who had the infection will know if they had to go to hospital or have serious help to recover.
Most of the millions who had the covid virus stayed home and recovered on their own have a proven immune system for a particular virus. Some even had the infection and their immune system fought it off so well they did not get very sick at all. Those people should be naturally immune.
At any rate it is their choice to risk the side effects of the shots. Now more and more information is coming out that natural immunity is robust and is long lasting. Seems to be proving to be more than just good enough.
You really are not getting it. Again, as is often the case with you, your base premise is wrong.

Natural immunity is difficult to prove and quantify. It is not anywhere near 100%. People have been reinfected and died. It is far safer to vaccinate everyone than to let people who think they are pretty sure they are immune skip out.
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sk47

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You do realize that your memory t-cells do not last forever and are stabilized by homeostasis meaning that they are constantly being reshuffled? Natural immunity doesn't always work thats the thing, it 'naturally' fades away with time. It also wildly varies from person to person. It doesn't matter if you had a tough recovery. You can be fine completely the next time you get infected. There are other factors such has age, and other comorbidities (not including genetic factors) that come into play which is why scientists always do their best to control for when designing an experiment or performing a study.

Just like the vaccines, mutations in the virus that increases its binding affinity lets it escape the immune response. Natural immunity is better but only up until a certain point, I doubt that antibodies the of everyone that has previously had COIVID is more effective than the ones from a person who just had the COIVD booster shot.

Natural immunity only works when the virus doesn't have a mutation that increases its virulence. Because the virus is running rampant that gives it more chances to mutate and form a genetically distinct variant.

Natural immunity works because our immune system would be worthless if we didn't do that. Is it better than nothing? Yes, but don't act as if natural immunity doesn't have its drawbacks and is better than being vaccinated.

Hello; Yes natural active immunity can fade in some ways as i already stated. However it often can last for years and even decades in that the body can start up the active components again after a long time. It does not just go away.

The part about mutated strains of a pathogen is the same for natural and vaccine immunity. Some pathogens mutate a lot and often such as the flu virus. This may turn out to be the case for covid, but so far the mutations (drift) is not yet great according to the reports. Thing is the same thing happens for vaccine immunity as you are describing for natural immunity. When the virus has a changed enough mutation the vaccines will no longer work at all. Same for natural and vaccine immunity.
( side note- this is where an effective clinical medication or treatment can be better than vaccines. If a medication can be had that relieves the problem symptoms of the infection then it will not matter if the virus mutates.)

I can have a sound immune system one day and a damaged immune system some time later. So yes if my immune system is damaged by something such will make a difference. Chemo and radiation treatments come to mind. Other things can happen. I can become obese. I ca n develop HBP or some other co-morbidity. Those things happen and do affect the immune system. I can have a poor diet.
 

Sivi70980

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Natural immunity is difficult to prove and quantify. It is not anywhere near 100%. People have been reinfected and died. It is far safer to vaccinate everyone than to let people who think they are pretty sure they are immune skip out.
I'm kind of torn here and please correct any of my misunderstandings. On one hand, I believe it's everyone's choice to do as they will since the founding of our country. On the other hand, if true, people choosing NOT to get vaccinated are endangering everyone around them. Therefore, getting vaccinated can't be a choice anymore because greater good. Obviously an issue for a country founded on doing whatever the hell we want.

What are the chances of viral mutation vs vaccinated people?
I'm guessing the chances are higher for those relying on natural immunity but why?
 

sk47

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You really are not getting it. Again, as is often the case with you, your base premise is wrong.

Natural immunity is difficult to prove and quantify. It is not anywhere near 100%. People have been reinfected and died. It is far safer to vaccinate everyone than to let people who think they are pretty sure they are immune skip out.
Hello; The fully vaccinated are infected and are dying. That sort of counts.
 

sk47

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I'm kind of torn here and please correct any of my misunderstandings. On one hand, I believe it's everyone's choice to do as they will since the founding of our country. On the other hand, if true, people choosing NOT to get vaccinated are endangering everyone around them. Therefore, getting vaccinated can't be a choice anymore because greater good. Obviously an issue for a country founded on doing whatever the hell we want.

What are the chances of viral mutation vs vaccinated people?
I'm guessing the chances are higher for those relying on natural immunity but why?
Hello; First thing is we are in the USA a nation founded on freedom of choice, especially in things having to do with medical stuff.

The second question has been pretty much an equal outcome has been my understanding. I do not know about a difference between natural and vaccine immunity with regard to mutations. I have seen some reports recently about the new type vaccines possibly generating more mutations, but I do not have any confidence at all about this so far.
Based on older knowledge the way I understand it to work is we get infected with a new virus and it starts to take over our cells. Different virus tend to attack different cells. A rhinovirus tends to attack nasal passage cells. A rabies virus tends to attack nerve cells especially brain cells.
When a virus invades a cell it takes over the cells operations that make things such as proteins. The virus uses a copy of it's own RNA to direct the cell to make more virus. After a time the cell is full of copies of the virus and ruptures releasing many thousands of copies that go out and invade more cells.
Thing is an RNA virus pathogen is not as stable as a DNA type pathogen. The RNA can be corrupted more easy. It could be a slight mistake when being copied in a cell. It could be an interaction with some environmental factor such as radiation or some such. Thing is it happens and is known to happen. The flu virus is a good example. It is a RNA virus and some new mutations tend to show up every year. Not clear covid will mutate as much.

The natural immunity and vaccine immunity both should stop the virus from infecting a larger number of cells than it could otherwise. My take is if vaccinated with a proper vaccine or having had a virus the body will be loaded with antibodies and cells that are active in the body. The antibodies attach to the outside of the invading virus and when enough are attached the virus cannot invade a cell at all. A few cells may be invaded if a virus can slip by the antibodies, the T-Cells and the other immune system actors, but far, far fewer will be invaded than without the antibodies.
So my take is it may be possible for a mutation to happen in the very few cells invaded in a vaccinated or naturally immune person, but not very likely. I have some confidence in this, but acknowledge there can be new information, so cannot make a call.

I may have out of date understanding, but it is my take those without a proper vaccine or who have not had the virus before are more likely to generate mutations. Those who are infected will have many, many thousands of cells invaded and so the odds for a change (mutation) in the RNA is higher by sheer numbers.
 

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K4fxd

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A friend's wife got Covid a second time, and it almost killed her. The first time was a total non-event. She thought she would be fine after Round 1.
Some who got the jab also got the covid and got really sick . Nothing is perfect.
 
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K4fxd

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Reading through these last pages it appears that some are following the science and others are pushing a jab.

The science shows that a natural immunity is at least as good as a jab.

So back to my original question.

Why is there such a big push to get everyone in the world injected with this drug?
 

K4fxd

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On the other hand, if true, people choosing NOT to get vaccinated are endangering everyone around them. Therefore, getting vaccinated can't be a choice anymore because greater good.
That is communist thinking and fly's in the face of individual freedom.

One bad part of freedom is it can be dangerous. With freedom come responsibility. You know if you are sick you should stay home ect.

Not everyone is responsible.

I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery.

Also, if you are vaccinated you are protected, are you not? So why do you care if I'm jabbed?

Science shows that jabbed people spread the virus too.
 

rick81721

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I can't imagine being that close and not going to see every one.

I was a bit of an amature rocket scientist back in the day.
Ha I'm a 3.5 hr drive away - and they are constantly changing launch dates/times due to weather and other factors. But will def get over there for one
 

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K4fxd

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True but at a rate at least 100 times lower than those not vaccinated and never had the covid (at least the dying part).
Need to amend your statement, fixed it for ya.
 

CJJon

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I'm kind of torn here and please correct any of my misunderstandings. On one hand, I believe it's everyone's choice to do as they will since the founding of our country. On the other hand, if true, people choosing NOT to get vaccinated are endangering everyone around them. Therefore, getting vaccinated can't be a choice anymore because greater good. Obviously an issue for a country founded on doing whatever the hell we want.

What are the chances of viral mutation vs vaccinated people?
I'm guessing the chances are higher for those relying on natural immunity but why?
You really can't do whatever the hell you want in the US. Never really could.

Correct, this isn't really a personal choice, but no one will force anyone to get vaccinated. For sure though, the unvaccinated do not get to do things others that are vaccinated can. Sports events, jobs, restaurants, schools, whatever.

Skip it if you are dumb enough, but don't expect equal treatment and access.

The other stuff, I have no idea.
 

Sivi70980

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That is communist thinking and fly's in the face of individual freedom.

One bad part of freedom is it can be dangerous. With freedom come responsibility. You know if you are sick you should stay home ect.

Not everyone is responsible.

I prefer dangerous freedom to peaceful slavery.

Also, if you are vaccinated you are protected, are you not? So why do you care if I'm jabbed?

Science shows that jabbed people spread the virus too.
Individual freedom...do you stop at red lights?

I WISH people would stay home when sick! Unfortunately, many companies are able to simply replace you one way or another if you come to work less than the co worker next to you.

Agree 100%

Are we free? Taxes get payed without question, political votes really don't matter, and there are groups of "elite" people who live on a completely different set of rules that the rest of us.

The vaccines are like condoms, people use them and still have kids but a lot less of them right? I don't want to care if you're jabbed or not BUT what if some of what we're told is right and you not getting jabbed can end up hurting me and mine? Or yours? The goal is for us all to move forward together? But maybe this vaccine will be the end of us all who got it? I got it today so I can eat tomorrow, next week is still days away.

But doesn't that science also show the jabbed people spread it less than non-jobbed?
 

Strokerswild

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Correct, this isn't really a personal choice, but no one will force anyone to get vaccinated. For sure though, the unvaccinated do not get to do things others that are vaccinated can. Sports events, jobs, restaurants, schools, whatever.
Now that Delta is raging, and also because the vaccinated percentage isn't there among my fellow employees, we get to all go back to wearing masks when in the workplace until things improve. Reminds me of the old saying, "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

Thanks anti-vaxxers! I get that it's a choice and all, but come on. Besides, I doubt many of us are wearing masks outside the workplace unless specified.
 

Sivi70980

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Now that Delta is raging, and also because the vaccinated percentage isn't there among my fellow employees, we get to all go back to wearing masks when in the workplace until things improve. Reminds me of the old saying, "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

Thanks anti-vaxxers! I get that it's a choice and all, but come on. Besides, I doubt none of us are wearing masks outside the workplace unless specified.
Same at my work. Masks pretty much always even if outside. Told we can't even send one person to get lunch for a group anymore. However, how do we know it's purely the anti-vaxxers fault? I'm sure the chance of being exactly where we are now is still there if everyone on the planet got vaxxed...or didn't. Key word being chance and obviously fluctuates. I mean, there's a chance you'll get through the intersection running the red light...
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