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GT vs. EB high performance for city driving

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MaskedRacerX

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Did the tune boost engine power? Or just the way the trans shifts?

I haven't even looked into a tune yet.
Power too, it's a FlexTune, so can run ethanol, it's __insane__, I've had a lot of dyno time, and have a decent sense of seat-of-the-pants vs. actual difference, and I can tell you, it's a substantial power increase, through the whole power curve, and particularly on the lower end.

FYI, I'm running an AED tune (I used a different tuner for my '16, great results, just no Flex option available for MY18+)
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w3rkn

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I usually stay out of this argument - cause I really don't care what other people spend their money on. But I could say the same thing. Go drive a stock big block or stroked small block chevy or even a LSx. Apples to oranges. I get it - you prefer turbocharged small displacement engines - that's great. But "coaxing" a Gen 3 Coyote? LMAO. When I state it's a bit "lazy" on the bottom end - I mean OFF idle to say 3K rpm. And that's comparing it to my experience driving tons of larger cubic inch small block GM / Ford engines.

Seriously though - what is "effortless"? Does that take that much effort to push your right foot down? I drive a 6 speed (preference.. I know the new 10 speed auto is faster) and it doesn't take "Effort" to take advantage of the Gen3 Coyote.

So you're saying that comparing a stock '19 GT with 10 speed Auto in Sport Mode to a EB HPP w/ 10 speed and sport mode - the EB takes less effort at low rpms?

Drive what you want. Enjoy it. Mod it. I'm all for it. But comparing the EB and Coyote is literally apples to oranges. It doesn't make any sense.

What about rear gears? Because as I've stated before - that's a big part of what's being discussed although almost no one seems to recognize it, much less acknowledge it. Torque multiplication. Not to mention the 10 speed keeping either engine at it's power peak longer via more gears.

They are two different platforms. Saying one is "better" than the other for whatever reason is absolutely silly - since if it's based on pure HP / torque numbers - stock for stock - of course the Gen 3 Coyote wins. If it's a personal preference issue - then no answer is wrong or right.

I don't get people who dog on other people for having a V6 or EB Mustang instead of a 5.0. I loved my '17 modded 3.7 Mustang. The three reasons that I traded my car in on a '19 GT were simple.

1. The dealer I have dealt with forever, gave me a ridiculously good price with 2020 models hitting the lot
2. They gave me a great price on my trade.
3. I already had a pile of upgrades bought and in the shop ready to bolt onto to the 3.7. They'd been sitting there for months - because I am trying to finish a '95 Bronco project, and next up is my wife's '84 GMC K1500 which will be a frame off. Only so much time to wrench between my real job and my other responsibilities. I felt like I'd be less inclined to throw a ton of mods at the GT....

It's a circular argument that I'll never get. It happened in forums when I road sportbikes for years. "Get a liter bike, you'll regret if you don't" - even though a 600 or even smaller bike was / is ridiculously fast compared to almost anything else on the road..

If it was all about off idle torque - we'd be discussing different platforms / engines.

Bottom line - buy what fits your personal situation and preference. Buy what's going to make you happy. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks - they aren't the one driving it or paying for it.

To use the Yote3's horsepower, you have to step a little into the revs (4,500RPMs~) to have some thrust (ie: coaxing your car out into traffic and up to speed -vs- riding the bubble of torque that the EB effortlessly provides and at lower rpms.)

Simple stuff..
 

Nickel

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This entire question seems void. You're comparing the EB torque as if it's more than the GT. The GT still has more tq and a lot more power.... I'm not discriminating against the EB, it's a stellar engine, but an NA V8 with 400 wtq is going to be peppier and definitely more usable in traffic than a turbocharged 4 cylinder with 325 wtq...
 

ctandc72

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To use the Yote3's horsepower, you have to step a little into the revs (4,500RPMs~) to have some thrust (ie: coaxing your car out into traffic and up to speed -vs- riding the bubble of torque that the EB effortlessly provides and lower rpms.)

Simple stuff..
Sorry - calling major BS on that. All it takes is comparing a stock EB dyno sheet to a stock Gen 3 Coyote dyno sheet.

Hell, you can compare a TUNED EB (otherwise stock) dyno sheet to a STOCK Gen 3 dyno and the evidence is right there.

"The bubble of torque"....what the hell are you even talking about?

Tell me how much torque a stock EB makes at 2500 RPM.
Tell me how much torque a stock Gen 3 makes at 2500 RPM.

This is not rocket science.

EB dyno graph 1.JPG




A stock Gen 3 makes over 300 ft/lbs of torque at 2500 RPM.

A stock EB makes @ 260 ft/lbs of torque at the same RPM

The tuned EB above still makes less than 300 ft/lbs at the same RPM.

Simple stuff.
 

Bikeman315

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Sorry - calling major BS on that. All it takes is comparing a stock EB dyno sheet to a stock Gen 3 Coyote dyno sheet.
Hell, you can compare a TUNED EB (otherwise stock) dyno sheet to a STOCK Gen 3 dyno and the evidence is right there.
"The bubble of torque"....what the hell are you even talking about?
Tell me how much torque a stock EB makes at 2500 RPM.
Tell me how much torque a stock Gen 3 makes at 2500 RPM.
This is not rocket science.

A stock Gen 3 makes over 300 ft/lbs of torque at 2500 RPM.
A stock EB makes @ 260 ft/lbs of torque at the same RPM
The tuned EB above still makes less than 300 ft/lbs at the same RPM.
Simple stuff.
Numbers on paper are always simple :) It’s more than that. When I put my 15EB in sport mode it just felt really fast off the line. Never bothered to check the tach. No doubt, my GT/CS puts out more torque but the feel is different. Maybe it’s the weight difference, maybe it gear ratios, but the feel was real.
 

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w3rkn

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This entire question seems void. You're comparing the EB torque as if it's more than the GT. The GT still has more tq and a lot more power.... I'm not discriminating against the EB, it's a stellar engine, but an NA V8 with 400 wtq is going to be peppier and definitely more usable in traffic than a turbocharged 4 cylinder with 325 wtq...
NO, it is that some people are looking at only a max peaks, and not understanding the actual horsepower and torque plots. And how differently these engine behave… even if they may have the same numbers. (look at BMW's M2 Comp engine and GT350 engine's plots. Totally different in how they achieve their performance. Just as different as a pushrod v8. How you extract the engine's performance is different.

In a normally aspirated engine, everything is linear and you have to rev to near max, to see near max potential of the engine. Simple physics. Forced induced engine, produce torque differently, thus how you extract that force is different.


Most of this would be evident of there was a graph, overlapping a gen3 yote & 2.3hipo's dyno plots. (Even more so, if you have a "tuned" HPP. Easily extracting another 50+ lbs of thrust, or more.)
 

ctandc72

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Numbers on paper are always simple :) It’s more than that. When I put my 15EB in sport mode it just felt really fast off the line. Never bothered to check the tach. No doubt, my GT/CS puts out more torque but the feel is different. Maybe it’s the weight difference, maybe it gear ratios, but the feel was real.
I agree. But "Feel" is much different than actual numbers. I've had my "butt dyno" proven wrong MANY a time in the last 30 years.

Activating Sport mode will change throttle maps (more sensitive to input) and in automatics will modify shifting patterns / rpm etc.

I have a buddy with a 383 small block Chevy in an older GM A-Body. It's mated to an aftermarket 5 speed. With 3.73 gears, and GOBS of off idle / low to mid range torque that car FEELS faster than my stock '19 GT. Even to me, riding or driving. Actual numbers and a side by side comparison proved our butt dynos to be lying to us.
 

ctandc72

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NO, it is that some people are looking at only a max peaks, and not understanding the actual horsepower and torque plots. And how differently these engine behave… even if they may have the same numbers. (look at BMW's M2 Comp engine and GT350 engine's plots. Totally different in how they achieve their performance. Just as different as a pushrod v8. How you extract the engine's performance is different.

In a normally aspirated engine, everything is linear and you have to rev to near max, to see near max potential of the engine. Simple physics. Forced induced engine, produce torque differently, thus how you extract that force is different.


Most of this would be evident of there was a graph, overlapping a gen3 yote & 2.3hipo's dyno plots. (Even more so, if you have a "tuned" HPP. Easily extracting another 50+ lbs of thrust, or more.)
Again - as I posted. 2500 RPM - stock Gen 3 puts out more torque than a tuned EB. So what RPM range are you talking about? The EB hits its torque peak quickly - simple physics - and while the curve is a bit flatter, the GEN 3 Coyote still puts out more torque - as it should, with a cubic displacement of twice the EB.
 

NoVaGT

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I can't believe this thread has gone on for 5 pages. And I'm betting the OP never re-joined.
 

Jmtoast

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I can't believe this thread has gone on for 5 pages. And I'm betting the OP never re-joined.
Probably said f$%k it i'm just going to buy a Kia... the end
 

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shogun32

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just wait till Ford replaced the 10AT with a CVT. The car will feel so slow because there won't be "shift points" and jerks in the delivery anymore. All in the interests of CAFE of course. :)
 

w3rkn

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Sorry - calling major BS on that. All it takes is comparing a stock EB dyno sheet to a stock Gen 3 Coyote dyno sheet.

Hell, you can compare a TUNED EB (otherwise stock) dyno sheet to a STOCK Gen 3 dyno and the evidence is right there.

"The bubble of torque"....what the hell are you even talking about?

Tell me how much torque a stock EB makes at 2500 RPM.
Tell me how much torque a stock Gen 3 makes at 2500 RPM.

This is not rocket science.

EB dyno graph 1.JPG


A stock Gen 3 makes over 300 ft/lbs of torque at 2500 RPM.

A stock EB makes @ 260 ft/lbs of torque at the same RPM

The tuned EB above still makes less than 300 ft/lbs at the same RPM.

Simple stuff.
Ford authorized conservative tune, on a stock EB engine.

Just go to Ford Performance's website bro.... +70ft-lbs of thrust more at 3k. For $775 bucks. Do you understand now? Most performance minded Mustang driver's will opt for the last tick on the options list, a Ford Performance Tune. It is a no-brainer as nobody here car's about the governmen't EPA stuff, when it comes to performance. And the HPP doesn't have a stock engine, but a more robust Ford Performance RS engine, thus even more capable of numbers over the stock Performance Tune.

Subsequently, when comparing two different engine's plots and their performance, nobody cares about gas mileage. Thus (again) many who buy Mustangs for their performance, get the real intended performance that comes with the a Ford Mustang, by using a Ford Performance tune...! (In which, your insurance company doesn't charge you higher premiums) (All performance Manufacturers do this.)


And please understand, that a tuned 2.3hipo can have more (usable) low-end torque than a tuned 5.0. Which is what makes the Mustang HPP great for those who still like to use a manual. But not-so-much a big deal for those who opt for the ever-matching A10. When "coaxing" become moot, since you can not select the exact gear you want, nor use the "bubble" to max effect. And must rely on sequencing.

My argument is about the engines and their power delivery, not transmission.
 

w3rkn

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Again - as I posted. 2500 RPM - stock Gen 3 puts out more torque than a tuned EB. So what RPM range are you talking about? The EB hits its torque peak quickly - simple physics - and while the curve is a bit flatter, the GEN 3 Coyote still puts out more torque - as it should, with a cubic displacement of twice the EB.
You should surf the internet and put ALL the comparisons out there... please start in the RS forums, though...! :headbang:
 

ctandc72

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just wait till Ford replaced the 10AT with a CVT. The car will feel so slow because there won't be "shift points" and jerks in the delivery anymore. All in the interests of CAFE of course. :)
God don't say that. Guy I know is a service manager with Nissan. His running joke, when Nissan started using CVT, "The rubber band broke".
 

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I can't believe this thread has gone on for 5 pages. And I'm betting the OP never re-joined.
"5 Pages?.. pfft Hold my Beer" - W3rkn
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