Red Flag

[HoosierDaddy]

Better not piss off your spouse, ex, girl/boy friend, or neighbor or they can screw you over big time by just saying you threatened to kill someone

Already happened. Police shot a homeowner who answered the door with firearm in hand at 0 dark 30. IIRC news report said the police were there because of a false red flag report by an angry relative.

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[HoosierDaddy]

I see now what you are referring to - I see a story regarding Ohio trying to pass this - from the article:

"
What DeWine has proposed
One of DeWine's proposals was to establish a "safety protection order" that could be granted by a court to remove guns from individuals deemed an "imminent" risk to themselves or others because of a mental health issue, alcoholism, drug dependency or criminal history.

Doesn't make sense. Even if you take someone's guns, there are other guns within short walking distance or are we to believe someone who would shoot up a school/mall/etc. wouldn't break a neighbor's window to "borrow" their guns (see video below).

And I'm pretty sure there is not a part of the brain that causes someone to kill or maim but only with a gun.

If someone is dangerous enough to not have a gun, they are dangerous enough to not be running around loose where they can get another gun, or rent a big truck to mow down people, or make a pressure cooker bomb, etc, etc..

A federal judge needs to have them committed.

 

[cosmo]

Doesn't make sense. Even if you take someone's guns, there are other guns within short walking distance or are we to believe someone who would shoot up a school/mall/etc. wouldn't break a neighbor's window to "borrow" their guns (see video below).

And I'm pretty sure there is not a part of the brain that causes someone to kill or maim but only with a gun.

If someone is dangerous enough to not have a gun, they are dangerous enough to not be running around loose where they can get another gun, or rent a big truck to mow down people, or make a pressure cooker bomb, etc, etc..

A federal judge needs to have them committed.

So because other options are available, we should do nothing. Got it.

On that note, we shouldn't ban abortion. Many options to do it, so why even try?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

So because other options are available, we should do nothing. Got it.

On that note, we shouldn't ban abortion. Many options to do it, so why even try?

No, As I said, we should hospitalize people who are psychotic. Taking a gun doesn't stop a psychotic person from mass killing. But taking a gun is an almost pointless thing that people who haven't thought things thru might buy into. Committing people who are psychotic is a harder sell. All part of the "just do something that enough people might support despite it being ineffective rather than something that will help but would take precious legislative time away from banning straws or renaming criminals "Justice involved persons."

 

[cosmo]

No, As I said, we should hospitalize people who are psychotic. Taking a gun doesn't stop a psychotic person from mass killing. But taking a gun is an almost pointless thing that people who haven't thought things thru might buy into. Committing people who are psychotic is a harder sell. All part of the "just do something that enough people might support despite it being ineffective rather than something that will help but would take precious legislative time away from banning straws or renaming criminals "Justice involved persons."

Agreed, I fully advocate everyone to speak to a therapist, whether they believe they have an issue or not. More people should, and the stigma of talking to a therapist is slowly being whittled away.

Doesn't mean this shouldn't be worked from both avenues.

 

[Hack]

I want to see more done with "assault rifles" along with background checks and flagging individuals.

So called "assault rifles" are used in less than 3% of gun killings.

Many of our leaders are suggesting things that sound reasonable, but really aren't. So much political talk, and most of them are just trying to make a name for themselves or make money. It's rare to find a leader here in the US who is actually trying to solve problems.

I agree with the OP's reservations about red flag laws. Arresting people or confiscating their property when they haven't broken any laws is completely wrong.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I agree with the OP's reservations about red flag laws. Arresting people or confiscating their property when they haven't broken any laws is completely wrong.

Yeah. You can't arrest people for something they might do or take property. BUT, I would support committing people who are a real danger due to mental illness. Just like quarantining someone with a deadly contagious disease. Makes no sense at all to confiscate one object when the world is full of deadly weapons. Even if you take away the pressure cooker some nut might make a bomb with, nothing would stop them from buying a gun, starting a fire, renting a good ramming truck or poisoning a water supply or ....

 

[Grintch]

It is already illegal to own or buy a gun for:
felons
fugitives
those adjudicated as mentally ill or defective
Unlawful drug users
Illegal aliens and non permenant reaidents
Those who have renounced thier citizenship
Those convicted of certain misdemeanors (typically domestic violence)

Enforce this is and we don't need red flag laws.

The problem with red flag laws is they have low standards for evidence, probable cause, and virtually no requirement for proof. Do we really want to set the precident that people's rights can be taken away, and assets seized without any proof that they broke the law?

Note that threats, stalking, menacing, etc. are enough for a conviction that will prevent (legal) gun ownership in many places. But there is a well defined line for what is criminal, and proper due process required. Not just he said /she said.

Want to define a better limit for "adjucated as mentally ill or defective", then define it. But it should take a court proceding/ruling, and all the normal protections of proper evidence, right to counsel, and right to appeals should apply.

Otherwise you might find out that a report that he is a nut who drives too fast and spends too much on his Mustang, and plays violent video games is enough for you to lose your rights and property.

 

[Interceptor]

Don't forget "dishonorable discharged servicemen". Can not purchase

 

[cosmo]

What a brilliant display of the 2nd Amendment rights brought to you by our FOUNDING FATHERS this weekend, yet again another American PATRIOT out there utilizing their RIGHT to brandish their FIREARMS against American citizens.

/sarcasm

 

[Timeless]

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/2016/06/causes-of-death.jpg

So based on this (and I use Snopes only because the left considers it valid) a LOT more items need to be banned before guns.

I always find it hard to take advice from someone willing to end a life in utero that admonishes people on violence.

 

[Grintch]

What a brilliant display of the 2nd Amendment rights brought to you by our FOUNDING FATHERS this weekend, yet again another American PATRIOT out there utilizing their RIGHT to brandish their FIREARMS against American citizens.

/sarcasm

Let's see
Murder is illegal
Assault is illegal
Brandishing a weapon/threatenining bodily harm is illegal
etc.

Just look at what mass shooters are charged with. Typically just murder and assault, once they have you for the death penalty or multiple life sentences, they don't bother changing you with the small stuff like violating "gun free" zones or possessing a sawed off shotgun.

So:
A - if they don't bother to charge mass shooter with violating gun laws, how will more gun laws help?
B - if you are facing 250 years in prison for something you plan to do, why would facing another 10 for violating a gun law stop you?

Plus as Timeless points out, while people being murdered is bad, a lot more people commit suicide or die in car accidents, and no one is suggesting banning cars or anti depresants (which ironicly all seem to "increase suicidal thoughts" as a side effect) yet. From a public health or danger perspective, gun crime is small potatoes (and near an all time low, despite gun ownership being at an all time high ).

 

[cosmo]

Let's see
Murder is illegal
Assault is illegal
Brandishing a weapon/threatenining bodily harm is illegal
etc.

Just look at what mass shooters are charged with. Typically just murder and assault, once they have you for the death penalty or multiple life sentences, they don't bother changing you with the small stuff like violating "gun free" zones or possessing a sawed off shotgun.

So:
A - if they don't bother to charge mass shooter with violating gun laws, how will more gun laws help?
B - if you are facing 250 years in prison for something you plan to do, why would facing another 10 for violating a gun law stop you?

Plus as Timeless points out, while people being murdered is bad, a lot more people commit suicide or die in car accidents, and no one is suggesting banning cars or anti depresants (which ironicly all seem to "increase suicidal thoughts" as a side effect) yet. From a public health or danger perspective, gun crime is small potatoes (and near an all time low, despite gun ownership being at an all time high ).

It remains to be seen how he obtained the weapon used, so we'll have to postpone the discussion on laws on if he obtained it through some sort of loophole or was he missed. It's been shown he was previously denied a gun through the background check, so either he utilized a loophole or obtained it illegally.

I was mainly just pointing out yet again, another mass shooting in America. Maybe one day if your wife, child, parent, sister, brother, or best friend, etc. is murdered you'll be motivated to action.

To counter Timeless's point, the majority of those deaths are inflicted upon yourself or are accidents. The majority are not inflicted upon you by others intentionally, such as gun deaths. Glad to hear the 29 year old Postal Service worker who was murdered in this past shooting was just a small potato though.

 

[Grintch]

Car crashes and suicides kill far more young people than guns.

If you want to reduce deaths, go after stuff that causes more deaths. Isn't that common sense enough for you?

 

[cosmo]

Car crashes and suicides kill far more young people than guns.

If you want to reduce deaths, go after stuff that causes more deaths. Isn't that common sense enough for you?

My goal isn't an overall death reduction, but it's death/injury inflicted upon you intentionally by others.

Accidents and self inflicted /= inflicted upon you intentionally by others.

If I wanted to reduce death I would introduce a nationwide fat tax on people who are fat. A nice flat % off your paycheck. It would be a combination of BMI, measurements, and physical ability to help sort out those "I'm not fat, just big boned" people.

Introduce a bill providing healthcare including mental healthcare regardless of employment and sure, you may see those suicide numbers drop. But it won't happen.

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