BBQ tick - another attempt to understand

[GT Pony]

My wonder then, is why are these guys getting metal in their filters? Maybe you just gotta run better oil. Heck I dunno.

I think those particular engines had some pretty messed up parts clearances, and it wouldn't have mattered what oil was used in them ... they were going to slowly self destruct.

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[dtewfoster1974]

Exactly..not sure why I’m getting beef over an ex demo, here’s my big question - HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY HAD THIS ISSUE FIXED? We have so many reports on here, new engines, blocks etc but the noise comes back? Has anyone actually rid the noise for good? No one seems to be saying!

No beef here sorry if you feel that way pal just advising, I guess the situation must be getting to you as it would me. I do not have the issue myself but if I see a solution online i'll let you know. One thing is for sure, you shouldn't be driving a Mustang around (even in a second hand car like yours) with low mileage and having to worry if the engine is going to blow or not. This should be purely about the raw driving experience. I hope that you get some good luck and Ford see sense to help you out buddie.

 

[D6tse]

No beef here sorry if you feel that way pal just advising, I guess the situation must be getting to you as it would me. I do not have the issue myself but if I see a solution online i'll let you know. One thing is for sure, you shouldn't be driving a Mustang around (even in a second hand car like yours) with low mileage and having to worry if the engine is going to blow or not. This should be purely about the raw driving experience. I hope that you get some good luck and Ford see sense to help you out buddie.

Totally agree.. I don’t see much hope from ford if I’m honest, especially Over here :-/

 

[D6tse]

So just did my first oil change at 4908 miles.

The motor was still hot AF when I drained it. 180° cylinder head temp. I put 10 quarts of Motorcraft 5w30 synthetic blend with a motorcraft filter which I filled before putting on.

When I first cranked it up the idle was rough for a few seconds then the BBQ tick started. Cylinder head temp was 164° when I started it up so the engine was plenty warm. So I took the car on the freeway and tapped out 3rd gear a few to 7,000 rpm (which is like 110 MPH). Got gas and did some pulls followed by engine breaking on the way home. Pull in front of my house and the tick is gone. Here's videos to prove it.

Tick


No tick plus some slow revving.



I'm not gonna act like I baby my car. I got 12.6 MPG on my last tank. Everytime I get on the freeway I try to at least hit 90-110 MPH then slow it down.

The tick video isn't even as bad as it was when I first started it. I'll know for sure tomorrow on a cold start if my car is still STD free.

This is bbq tick though? Not the 2000k rpm rattle or did you have that too? Thanks

 

[socketman]

Get your oil analyzed and keep records. I had mine done in canada for 25 bux took 2 weeks. No metal should be visible in your oil period. After a 3500 mile road trip i had mine analyzed and nothing was found in the oil ,still lots of life left.

 

[Bubba Bear]

Are there any new 19s with the tick?

 

[Condor1970]

Are there any new 19s with the tick?

Yep. Seems to be just as common.

 

[Snakes&horses]

Are there any new 19s with the tick?

Yes sir,...mine does with 199.7 miles on it so far. Hoping that while it’s off the road for winter that ford will finally figure this out and issue a tsb by spring. Fingers crossed

 

[Stormtroopin5.0]

Yes sir,...mine does with 199.7 miles on it so far. Hoping that while it’s off the road for winter that ford will finally figure this out and issue a tsb by spring. Fingers crossed

I am in the same boat but knowing how slow Ford is to own up to issues I doubt it...

 

[GT Pony]

Get your oil analyzed and keep records. I had mine done in canada for 25 bux took 2 weeks. No metal should be visible in your oil period. After a 3500 mile road trip i had mine analyzed and nothing was found in the oil ,still lots of life left.

A few very small aluminum flakes is normal during beak in, but not copper colored flakes as that's a sign of journal bearing (rod/crank) material.

 

[Furiosa GT]

Are there any new 19s with the tick?

Noticed mine had it. Was sick for a couple days so car just sat in garage. Went out to cold start it and take video knowing it would be obvious on a cold start and it wasn't there anymore. Changed oil just in case. Still not there but I'm not holding my breath that it wont come back. I am honestly wondering if almost everyone has this and they are just not noticing it. I'm not saying it's normal but I would find it hard to believe it's not widespread. The one time I did notice it it went away after engine warmed up. I can probably deal with it so long as it goes away once warm. Kinda reminds me of my LS1 days were those engines would piston slap until warm and use oil but still made great power and lasted a long time. I'm just hoping Ford has a definite fix before I want to add some power to this car. What good is it to replace a brand new short block with another one if it's just going to do the same thing. Especially if your without your car for 2 months or more. I have heard horror stories here and elsewhere of how long this whole process is taking.

 

[TheLion]

I'm starting to think they really did build these engines to run like this. To have a tick at lower rpm would seem possibly normal, since the engine is designed to run at high rpm for quite a while without damage. The fact that they raised the red line to 7,500 this year, and also increased the diameter of the piston, I think it's possible they had to build in a little more clearance to allow for expansion due to the increase in rpm and size of the piston.

My wonder then, is why are these guys getting metal in their filters? Maybe you just gotta run better oil. Heck I dunno.

2nd Generation 5.0 was built to revv out to 7500 as well. Uses mass production{ized} Boss 302 rotating assembly. 13mm valve lift, 300 lbs valve springs, powder forged rods, a cast version of the cnc ported 302 heads (flows just as well, but slightly altered to make it a castable design). The big difference in the 3rd generation is the addition of P/DI injection and wire arc plasma transfer spay in cylinder liners first used in the voodoo 5.2 and a higher flowing intake manifold to match.

Also I have not seen ANYONE mention the HPFP. DI injectors require 2000 psi fuel rail pressure unlike Port injectors that are in the 80 to 100 psi range. HPFP's are NOISY. They have an almost erratic knock sound when revving down or up. Back when I had my Ecoboost I actually thought something was wrong with the engine at first until I realized what it was. It became especially noticeable with after market shifters because the solid steel shifter would act like a tuning fork.

So not all "ticking" some people are reporting is actual issues. And yes, the ticking would get less when things got hot in the ecoboost because the HPFP tolerance would tighten up like everything else. It was an interesting creature. But boy don't miss the dead top end. Even with the Power Pack, it just didn't compare to modern V8's.

 

[TheLion]

Also, I've been running Ravenol SFE 5W-20. It is the ONLY API licensed 5W-20 I can find that is PAO full synthetic base stocks. Oil pressure at idle went up from 20 psi on the idiot gauge to about 25 psi. Also peaks about 80 PSI where before mine would peak about 75 psi in the upper RPM region all the way out to 7,150 RPM (power pack 2). HTHS is 2.9 mPa*s which is the minimum spec for Hydrocracked 5W-30 oils. So you can run a 5W-20 that has the high temp protection of a cheapo us dino 5W-30 without voiding your warranty.

It is also ACEA A5/B5 which requires a minimum HTHS of 2.9 and is a Stay In Grade spec, so even over extended drain intervals the oil is rated to resist shear. CCS is only 3900 mPa*s, better than AMSOIL's cold temp pump ability. And in my 5.0, I can say it made a really nice difference. Not sure why 5 psi mattered that much, but the car always was sensitive to bog at very low RPM's and could still be a bit lethargic even after the Power Pack 2 down low (below 3000 rpm). Running the thicker PAO based ravenol seems to have eliminated that quirk. My guess is the cam phasors were responding slow due to the marginal oil pressure.

Ford performance warned me to be careful with oils as the cam phasors in the 2nd and 3rd generation 5.0 were very sensitive to oil viscosity and wouldn't respond as expected to commands if the oils foamed or thinned too much. that makes sense why down low it would be sensitive to bog under as oil pressure is still pretty low with the heavily doped VI hydro-cracked oils. Hence also the numerous comments about them being like pouring "water" into your engine. At this point I'm starting to align with @GT Pony in that some of these 5W-20's are just too thin. Add to that their high rates of shear and they may not be providing adequate protection in high RPM high powered engines.

If what has been said is true and the tolerances for the this 5.0 are the same as the S197 Boss 302, the Aussie 5.0's and the Euro 5.0's that are all running 5W-30's or 5W-50's and even call for it in the user manuals, then I'm wondering if the engine was really optimized to run on SAE 5W-30. So running a high end 5W-20 like Ravenol that meets the tougher ACEA A5/B5 specs (which are more like SAE 5W-30 specs but with stricter stay in grade requirements added) is the more ideal approach while also being warranty compliant. Also Ravenol SFE 5W-20 doesn't contain any moly, so if you run CeraTec, Archoil or TriboTEX there's no risk of moly competing with the hBN or MSH DLC layers even though I don't believe based on my R that TriboTEX in particular has any compatability issues with MoDTC (aka MoS2).

Most US 5W-20's and 5W-30's now have some small amount of MoDTC which decays into MoS2, another type of DLC coating like ZDDP, hBN and MSH. Even Motorcraft's new API SN+ formula now contains about 200 ppm of moly based on some recent F-150 UOA's. Most off the shelf synthetics are in the 50 ppm range. RedLine is in the 600 ppm range and Motorcraft is now in the 200 ppm range. But getting back to Ravenol SFE 5W-20, it's bar none the best oil I've used to date. Quieted down top end clatter even more than TriboTEX alone. I ran AMSOIL 5W-30 in my Ecoboost and it was a great oil as well, but the base stocks are still blended SAE THIN, but at least it doesn't shear down, so that's AMSOIL's strength is that while it's still watery thin it is at least stay in grade.

Thus far my oil changes have been:

1. 0 to 5,600 miles --> Motorcraft 5W-20 Semi-synthetic + FL-500S OE Filter || Notes: previous owner, no idea how the car was broken in, but I'm guessing it was driven hard

2. 5,600 to 10,000 miles --> Motorcraft 5W-20 Semi-synthetic + FL-500S OE Filter || Notes: some minor top end clatter towards end of the oil change (suspect oil thinning). Distinct burning smell like oil after being driven hard.

3. 10,000 to 16,000 miles --> Penzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20 GTL Synthetic + FL-500S OE Filter || Notes: noticed a top end ticking that was intermittent for the first couple thousand miles, but went away in the last half of the oil change interval.

4. 16,000 to 20,000 miles --> Motorcraft 5W-20 Semi-synthetic + FL-500S OE Filter || Notes: back to normal noises, but also the burning smell after being driven hard. Also installed Power Pack 2 and JLT 3.0 Oil Catch Can at 17,500 miles. Substantial improvement in mid-range punch above 4,000 RPM. Little better down low and a little stronger up top. Also really LOVE the extra 350 rpm, makes 3.73 PP Gearing quite nice instead of just always a little too short. Noticed a mild form of the BBQ tick when starting from a stop, but only when next to a wall. I suspect it's been there as I thought I heard it also last winter when stating from a stop next to toll booths while travelling but dismissed it at the time.

5. 20,000 miles to 24,500 miles --> Mobil 1 5W-20 Synthetic + FL-500S OE Filter || Notes: similar to PUP in terms of noise / clatter. Didn't change the "BBQ Tick" when starting from a stop, but it's mild enough that unless I'm parked next to a barrier / car, I can't hear it. Added TriboTEX at 21,000 miles and BBQ Tick disappeared. Also saw substantial increase in fuel economy (about 3-4 mpg) as well as power.

The car just pulls harder through the rev range and oil temps a bit lower on average, not much, but about 1/8th of the green area on the idiot gauge. This all indicates it has had a substantial reduction in friction losses. I see 28 to 30 mpg on a known strip of highway where I used to see 24 to 26 mpg repeatedly that I travel to work every day for past 7 years.

6. 24,500 miles to current --> Ravenol SFE 5W-20 PAO Full Synthetic + FL-500S OE Filter || Notes: Another very nice improvement in response. Even with the Power Pack 2, oil catch can and TriboTEX, the 5.0 could be a little sensitive to bog at low RPMs / light throttle. Ravenol seems to have fixed that, it feels more like a slightly less torqy push rod V8 down low now. It pulls more linearly down low and the top end seems to be just as strong if not maybe a tad stronger than before. Idle pressure is now 25 psi where before it was 20 psi average. That increase carries all the way up to red-line where it tops out at about 80 psi, before it was about 75 on my particular car (note that if you look at the gauge without moving your head over, 75 psi looks more like 80, so most people report 80 on regular 5W-20's when in reality the gauge is reading about 75 in the upper RPM ranges). Also less top end noise, that mild "ticking" sound (not BBQ tick, but top end tick) seems to have disappeared entirely. I'm NOT going back to any oil with a HTHS less than 2.9 and that isn't at least a PAO group IV or better.

Moral of the story? Look for a 5W-20 that is ACEA A5/B5 spec and API SN licensed and you have an oil that meets warranty but is more robust than off the shelf SAE 5W-30's, especially over extended drain intervals. AMSOIL in my opinion doesn't cut it. There are cars that ran SS from day 1 and ended up with a new short block bone stock. Now that could have been a mfg. defect, AMSOIL makes some great oils blends, but they are a blender, not a base stock manufacturer. So they may be more limited in base stock properties than Driven, RedLine, Ravenol, Motul or others that make PAO or Ester base stock blends themselves. Additives play a very important role but so does the base stock especially for components that rely on viscosity to work properly such as Rod Bearings, Hydraulic Lash Adjusters, Cam Bearings (not the loves, the actual shaft bearings) and Cam Phasors.

CeraTech, Archoil or TriboTEX can all compensate for a weak additive packages and perform extremely well with PAO/Ester blends and all Ester blends (TriboTEX is suspended in a Ester base stock, Archoil in a Ester and CeraTech in a Group III HC base stock), especially for those with the BBQ Tick.

But I would also highly recommend focusing on a very good quality base stock to pair with those oils. They can't compensate for shearing issues or marginal viscosity from the get go even if they do enhance oil adhesion. One, you may extend the Elastohydrodynamic or Hydrodynamic regions of operation due to a greater film strength and two you provide more protection and slightly more optimal working pressures, especially when things heat up as some of these Ester or PAO base stocks are so temperature stable they don't use ANY Viscosity Improvers.

Ravenol (called their Ultra Stable Viscosity Oil or USVO technology that is a mixture of PAO grades and some Esters) and RedLine (Ester blends) are both companies that I know do not need VI's at all (yes you heard that, they eliminated VI's) and that's how they can have an oil (Ravenol has better cold temp characteristics but slightly less HTHS viscosity) with a CCS of just 3900 mPa*s but with a stay in grade HTHS rating of 2.9 mPa*s or more at 150C and why my 5.0 seems to respond so much better with the Ravenol 5W-20 than any of the off the shelf Group III hydrocracked fake synthetics. All while remaining in warranty because it's (Ravenol) an API licenses 5W-20. I'd highly recommend it. I've had good luck with their 75W-80 gear oil as well, I had issues even with BG SyncroshiftII in my particular MT-82 and forget the factory fluid, but Ravenol's PAO gear oil seemed to fix the 2nd gear failure to sync when cold. It's still a bit gritty and nibbles on occasion when very cold (20~30F), but it still goes in gear when cold and is butter smooth once warm with a hint of a weighted feel to it. I absolutely love it.

 

[brucelinc]

Lion, I had a 2010 Lincoln MKS ecoboost. You are right about the noise from the HPFP. It was erratic and made plenty of noise. I could usually make it sound terrible if I would fluctuate the rpm between 1000 and 1500. Put a stethoscope on the pump and it would almost blow out your ear drums. It was like that from day one until I sold it at 75,000 miles and never had an issue. Had a Livernois tune and drag raced it every summer. I am quite sure that there are some 2018 Coyote owners who hear the normal sound of a HPFP and think the world is coming to an end.....especially after reviewing the forums, YouTube and Mustang groups on Facebook. I am not dismissing those who REALLY do have a problem but if one is not familiar with DI/HPFP, they may mistake it for something it is not.

 

[TheLion]

Lion, I had a 2010 Lincoln MKS ecoboost. You are right about the noise from the HPFP. It was erratic and made plenty of noise. I could usually make it sound terrible if I would fluctuate the rpm between 1000 and 1500. Put a stethoscope on the pump and it would almost blow out your ear drums. It was like that from day one until I sold it at 75,000 miles and never had an issue. Had a Livernois tune and drag raced it every summer. I am quite sure that there are some 2018 Coyote owners who hear the normal sound of a HPFP and think the world is coming to an end.....especially after reviewing the forums, YouTube and Mustang groups on Facebook. I am not dismissing those who REALLY do have a problem but if one is not familiar with DI/HPFP, they may mistake it for something it is not.

I believe HermanTheGerman was one of them. He was worried about some "knocking" noise and had asked a while back about it. He made a video and listened to it and immediately noticed the HPFP noise he thought was piston slap or bottom end noise. Yah they sound like crap, but when your driving it you don't notice it, just at idle typically. But yah I really find it interesting that the rest of the world uses 5W-30 for the same engine we spec out a 5W-20 and our 5W-30's have inferior viscosity stability to ACEA A5/B5 Euro spec 5W-20's....literally. My solution at this point especially for those that modify their engines or have the BBQ Tick is to do the following:

1. Stick to Ford Performance Power Packs if you modify your 5.0 and have them dealer installed (they are surprisingly good and you wouldn't gain anything meaningful from after market pump gas tunes). They maintain your warranty if anything should go wrong, including ESP. I had a catalytic converter (Bank 1) go bad at 23,000 miles. I had the Power Pack 2 installed at 17k. My car was just out of the 36k/3y because it's now over 3 years old. But it was still covered under warranty because of the ESP 100k/7year or 60k/5year standard power-train warranty. The failure wasn't related tot eh Power Pack and hence it was covered.

Installation of these select Ford Performance and mountune warranted performance packs and components by an authorized installer will NOT void your New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Engine, driveline and suspension concerns not caused by the use of Ford Performance or mountune parts remain eligible for warranty coverage according to the terms of the New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

2. Stick to FL-500S OE filter. As of 2017 all Motorcraft filters meet USCAR-36 specifications which call for filtering of 95% efficiency down to 10 microns. There are also quite strict tests on burst / rupture, corrosion, seal strength up to 100 psi (max the oil pump will get to before pressure relief), filter capacity over extended drain intervals, flow requirements etc. It's a known good quantity and your not going to get much better without spend quite a bit more. OE is good in this case.

GM's research on particle wear found a 2.7x life expectancy increase by going from 40 microns down to 10 microns and a 1.5x increase going down to 30 microns from 40. Also AVOID ANY type of re-usable filters. NONE of them performed as well as OE paper and your power gains in a street car are quite small. Oil filters have high risk of oil contamination also which has a negative effect on power as your MAF sensor is reading out of whack. Keep it clean and dry! If you must, use those filters only for track days. Also pre-filters (outer wears) are restrictive enough that you loose about 5 to 10 hp, so you go backwards by using pre-filters with a K&N or Dry flow type all while allowing up to 5x the contamination rates...makes no sense! I'd rather have a car that makes 10 hp less now but the same power 100k or even 200k from now...

3. Use an oil that meets ACEA A5/B5 specifications, this insures that the base stock is Stay in Grade and has a minimum HTHS of 2.9 to 3.2 at 150C which provides greater film strength at high RPM / high heat and when the oil is aged. Also ensures a minimum base number of 8.0 or greater at a volatility limit of 10 (NOACK). It also has requirements of knock resistance and while LSPI is not an issue with NA engines, deposits in the combustion chamber can still increase knock frequency and reduce your power output at the crank. The ECU is going to pull timing and keep things safe, but your not making the best power you otherwise could be. Greater oil film thickness also reduces wear by particles in the oil. If the film thickness is greater than the particle size, it won't cause surface abrasions and simply pass along through the oil film. Filters can't get everything! This is the flip side of particulate wear.

4. Use an oil catch can if you do a lot of high RPM type driving. The 5.0 generates a lot of heat. It has 4x the cam phasors, 2x the valves and cams, 4x the timing chains and all of which operates at a higher average RPM than it's pushrod competitors from GM (LT1 6.2) and Dodge (Hemi 392). Consequently is suffers from oil induced knock more severely. Ford Performance noted that even the stock 5.0 suffers from this and Car&Driver noted their 2015 PP GT was the ONLY car to experience "power fade" in their test lineup that day. It's just a reality we have to deal with and likely one that all high revving DOHC V8's deal with, I'd imagine the Voodoo 5.2 is even worse.

5. Using Surface Reconditioners to reduce friction losses, improve compression (not really an issue on newer engines), reduce blow by, reduce thermal losses / waste heat and tighten up clearances: of these the leader is TriboTEX with some very extensive R&D behind it, 10 years and over 10,000 cars now using it including ASTM standardized testing and the golden "weaven" hypoid gear lubricants test used by every major automitve mfg. to assess drive train lubricants. Surface reconditioners are a new class of EP additives that focus on forming DLC layers on wear parts and can have a very measurable improvement on fuel economy, engine response, power output and wear.

TriboTEX stands out however because it does NOT contain any other additives where Archoil and CeraTec both use chemical friction modifiers as well as their hBN DLC surface reconditioners, so you loose some benefits once you change the oil and with CeraTec it's very obvious you have added something to the oil by it's significant discoloration. However CeraTec is the lowest cost of the three. Overall performance is nearly identical between the three regarding friction reduction. DLC life span is the greatest with TriboTEX at 40,000 miles, CeraTech and Archoil are around 30,000 mile intervals. All three are fully compatible with all known oil formulas currently on the market, but your wasting money by using an oil with a lot of MoDTC in it as it's unused when there is already a DLC layer formed.

Also note that DLC coatings are another way to combat particulate wear issues. Compression goes fast when there is high dust contamination. But DLC coatings provide a sacrificial wear layer. Your wearing away a coating that can be replaced instead of the actual part itself which will eventually need to be replaced. So beyond the enhancements in fuel economy, power, engine response and oil cleanliness (reduces the acid and particle loading the oil, so either you can run it for longer intervals or have better performance average over the same intervals), it is a sacrificial anti-wear film.

6. Stick to OE paper filters. Contamination of the MAF sensor by dust or oil significantly affects the MAF readings and can have some big negative consequences on performance. Making power is one thing, but where 90% of enthusiasts go wrong is in MAINTAINING power. I'm not a fan of oiled filters or even dry, I've run both, I've reviewed ASTM testing on all of them an paper filters out perform them in filtration with only very marginal differences in flow rates. For a street car stick to paper. If you must run a high flow filter, then just pop it in for track days and go back to paper for daily use. Then you can have that last 1/10th without inducing wear. Also the filter capacity of re-usable filters is far less, often not even half. So while they may flow better when clean, they clog up much faster and a clogged high flow filter will be more restrictive and a partially clogged paper filter. Additionally note that Dryo Flow filters have reduced capacity after cleaning, so they hold even less dirt after because not all of the particles get removed and remain permanently embedded in the filter media.

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