C&D Lightning Lap 2018 Results for GT PP2

[Moogatwo]

Yep, that's exactly what I've been saying. The SC2s are incredible tires, and MUCH better than the PSS. It's not hard to believe that a stock PP2 can outperform a stock GT350, and the thought of having to spend $1600 on tires for a car that's already $10k+ more expensive just to make it faster doesn't sound so sweet to me

Yea I'm sure it came down to cost, but I think it's silly Ford went so far to build a great track care only to hamstring it with heavy wheels and street tires. I wish they would have offered a forged aluminum option with a better tire as a premium purchase option, but oh well. At least you can get a variation of the SC2s on the 19's and forward.

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[jake_zx2]

Yea I'm sure it came down to cost, but I think it's silly Ford went so far to build a great track care only to hamstring it with heavy wheels and street tires. I wish they would have offered a forged aluminum option with a better tire as a premium purchase option, but oh well. At least you can get a variation of the SC2s on the 19's and forward.

Not sure if I mentioned in this thread, but I think the GT350 should have been discontinued in 2018 (if the GT500 would've come out then like we all thought) and the GT350R should've stuck around. That way, the PP2 wouldn't have to be neutered and probably would've had a diff cooler added at least, the R could sit in for the people who just want an all out N/A track car, and the GT500 could take the void for those who just want a tear-your-face-off all around fast car

 

[Stuntman]

Yea I'm sure it came down to cost, but I think it's silly Ford went so far to build a great track care only to hamstring it with heavy wheels and street tires. I wish they would have offered a forged aluminum option with a better tire as a premium purchase option, but oh well. At least you can get a variation of the SC2s on the 19's and forward.

There are reasons the OEM wheels are heavy. Heavy = stiffer so it's not all bad. And light does not always = good if they flex excessively.

https://motoiq.com/tested-carbon-revolution-carbon-fiber-wheels/

 

[Norm Peterson]

There are reasons the OEM wheels are heavy. Heavy = stiffer so it's not all bad. And light does not always = good if they flex excessively.

https://motoiq.com/tested-carbon-revolution-carbon-fiber-wheels/

Too bad that article didn't try to put some magnitude on the effect of wheel rotational inertia effects. Or maybe they intentionally did not, since it's less than what most people who first stumble onto the concept want to believe. Sometimes a lot less.

My point here is that heavier wheels don't even hurt you that much when it comes to accelerating them rotationally (and consistent with the forward acceleration of the entire car including them).


Norm

 

[Stuntman]

Too bad that article didn't try to put some magnitude on the effect of wheel rotational inertia effects. Or maybe they intentionally did not, since it's less than what most people who first stumble onto the concept want to believe. Sometimes a lot less.

My point here is that heavier wheels don't even hurt you that much when it comes to accelerating them rotationally (and consistent with the forward acceleration of the entire car including them).

Norm

There were a lot of visuals, video links and comments on its academic effect on steering response as well as subjective feedback on the lower inertia carbon wheels against already light aluminum wheels.

 

[TheLion]

Maybe this is old news, but the PP2 actually ran a faster time on Lightning Lap than the 1LE despite the GT out porking the 1LE by exactly 100 lbs. A Ford Performance exhaust and some lightweight aluminum wheels would drop another 50 lbs and bring the power to weight ratio's more in line. The GT is just a bit heavier and doesn't utilize lightweight wheels or exhaust like the SS does. They are standard OEM Low Pressure Cast meaning they are round bricks.

2016 SS 1LE Lightning Lap: 2:54.8 Seconds: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-at-lightning-lap-2016-feature

2018 PP2 GT Lightning Lap: 2:53.8 seconds: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/2018-ford-mustang-gt-performance-package-2-lightning-lap-2018

I find it funny that in the MotorTrend article on the PP2 GT the supposedly flawless Randy Pobst was saying how the 1LE was still the faster car because HE couldn't drive it .65 seconds faster than the 1LE. I argued back then that a sample size of 1 driver is not enough and that changing drivers could result in completely opposite results. Yet people still argued how the 1LE was the faster car...I'll stick to my argument that they are close enough that it depends on the driver and track that may favor one car over another. What Pobst criticizes on the PP2 GT may be a praise for another driver.

Changing either of those variables (track and driver) can result in a win or loss of either car. 1LE still has one big advantage however for serious track work: cooling. The PP2 GT is still not set up as a true track duty car primarily due to the Torsen over heating. It's more like a light duty or casual setup which is probably what 99% of buyers would even use it for. But there we have it, the magical 1LE trades blows with the PP2 GT. 75W-140 gear oil anyone?

Here is the MT article: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...t-performance-pack-level-2-first-test-review/

Sounds to me like these are two very fast cars but the GT is more expensive, looks better and over heats the diff just as the GT350 and PP GT did on the track. You would think they would learn to use the diff cooler or heavier gear oil they already have and sell as an upgrade via Ford Performance! But gotta watch that bottom line...

I also recall people saying on the Eagle F1 Supercars were "holding back" the 1LE when I argued they were key to it's handling. It's a custom variant of the tire just for the 1LE, changing to an off the shelf tire can negatively impact that balance and there are even reviews on TireRack of ZL1 1LE owners saying that exact thing.

Guess who is now doing that for Ford on the 2019 GT350's? Michelin was contracted to develope a custom Sport Cup 2 tire with tweaked compounds and tread patterns specifically for the GT350R's chassis tuning. The PP2 GT is just running off the shelf tires, I'd say that's pretty impressive given it's 100 lb pot belly and off the shelf tires. Maybe Pobst, wile a good driver, isn't the end all be all review source people have made him out to be?

There are some advantages of weight in traction force, so maybe that 100 lbs isn't as big of a deal as it's made out to be. Look at the Nissan GTR. It smokes all these RWD muscle cars and weighs 4,000 lbs! Weight matters to a degree, but once you get within 50 lbs at similar power to weight ratios it becomes a non-factor assuming it's in the right areas of the car to avoid upsetting balance. Chassis tuning and tires matter then and how the driver prefers a particular setup. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

 

[TheLion]

Here's another one if you want to stroke your Ford fan boy ego: https://twitter.com/billyjracing?lang=en

A 647 HP Ford GT out drags a 755 HP modified ZR1 corvette. Ouch, down over 100 HP and two cylinders and the GT still wins. Then again the ZR1 costs what, 1/4 as much lol. Can't get around wind resistance! It's really nice to see GM has some real competition on the track finally from another American icon.

 

[jake_zx2]

Look at the Nissan GTR. It smokes all these RWD muscle cars and weighs 4,000 lbs!

Sorry, but the GTR isn't smoking anyone. Take a look at this article... on the same day, the GTR is significantly slower than a GT350R albeit costing significantly more https://www.motortrend.com/cars/mclaren/570/2016/2016-motor-trend-best-drivers-car/

Also, weight does make a difference, and it certainly isn't positive. 100lbs at 1.2G is another 240lbs of load on the tires, meaning less maximum grip achievable

 

[TheLion]

Sorry, but the GTR isn't smoking anyone. Take a look at this article... on the same day, the GTR is significantly slower than a GT350R albeit costing significantly more https://www.motortrend.com/cars/mclaren/570/2016/2016-motor-trend-best-drivers-car/

Also, weight does make a difference, and it certainly isn't positive. 100lbs at 1.2G is another 240lbs of load on the tires, meaning less maximum grip achievable

Like I said depends on the track and driver when cars are close in handling / power to weight. C&D's lightning lap it was faster not slower than the 1LE or PP2 GT or regular GT350: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/nissan-gt-r-track-edition-at-lightning-lap-2017-feature

2:53.2 for the GT-R
2:53.8 for the PP2 GT
2:54.8 for the 1LE

Maybe we should all just buy a dallara stradle and call it a day? https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/dallara-stradale-first-drive-review 2.00g's of lateral baby!

But seriously, different tracks favor different designs. The GT-R is more of a big power corner exit and straight line car, taking advantage of it's broad power band and AWD, also high speed sweepers favor heavier cars, while tight rapid turns favor lighter cars. So the question becomes what does the track favor? There are so many different tracks all with different characteristics that a car can perform phenomenally at one but sub-par at another.

The 1LE and PP2 GT have better chassis tuning but less power. Handling matters, but so does power. Take Auto X for example, the entire point of Auto X is to put an extreme bias on handling because it's typically far cheaper to make a car handle well than make it have extreme straight line power. Less powerful more affordable cars like the MX-5, S2000's etc. dominate at auto X while on a big track they get completely and utterly spanked and spanked hard.

But yah, the GT350R is simply an amazing car and hopefully will have gotten even faster for 2019. It's always nice to hurrah a series of car you own even if it's not the exact variant as it shows the potential of the S550 chassis and why I think that people saying the Alpha is vastly superior or superior over all to the S550 is moronic. They are close enough that one isn't inherently better. It comes down to driver, track and suspension tuning.

The ZL1 1LE is going to be faster, it has a massive power advantage of 125 HP with similar handling capabilities! That's a substantial advantage. It's also more expensive and starts out at 71k and has 3 years of development (ZL1 1LE debut in 2018 vs. the GT350R in 2015) after the GT350R was released. GM uses custom designed treads and compounds on their 1LE cars to maximize handling and get those last fractions of a second on each corner. The GT350R is just employing production tires until the 2019's which finally feature specific treads / compounds for the chassis / tuning.

We would need to see how the GT500 performs on a track, but if Ford sets it up for drag racing then they have nothing to compete against the ZL1 1LE. It will be interesting what comes out and weather they drop the ball or not.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I find it funny that in the MotorTrend article on the PP2 GT the supposedly flawless Randy Pobst was saying how the 1LE was still the faster car because HE couldn't drive it .65 seconds faster than the 1LE. I argued back then that a sample size of 1 driver is not enough and that changing drivers could result in completely opposite results. Yet people still argued how the 1LE was the faster car...I'll stick to my argument that they are close enough that it depends on the driver and track that may favor one car over another. What Pobst criticizes on the PP2 GT may be a praise for another driver.

Pretty sure what RP criticized was that the PP2 could be too 'loose' at times. Randy does prefer light understeer to oversteer, and it's probably based on running longer stints behind the wheel than 20 minutes. Loose may be faster, but only as long as you can keep up with it (without getting tense), and the longer you drive the more likely it becomes that you'll screw up badly enough to erase all those fractions of a second saved. At HPDE, assuming no damage, a 4-off still costs you laps while you check in on pit lane. Laps that you paid for, hoping to be able to run.


Norm

 

[Grintch]

Maybe this is old news, but the PP2 actually ran a faster time on Lightning Lap than the 1LE despite the GT out porking the 1LE by exactly 100 lbs. A Ford Performance exhaust and some lightweight aluminum wheels would drop another 50 lbs and bring the power to weight ratio's more in line. The GT is just a bit heavier and doesn't utilize lightweight wheels or exhaust like the SS does. They are standard OEM Low Pressure Cast meaning they are round bricks.

2016 SS 1LE Lightning Lap: 2:54.8 Seconds: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le-at-lightning-lap-2016-feature

2018 PP2 GT Lightning Lap: 2:53.8 seconds: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/2018-ford-mustang-gt-performance-package-2-lightning-lap-2018

I find it funny that in the MotorTrend article on the PP2 GT the supposedly flawless Randy Pobst was saying how the 1LE was still the faster car because HE couldn't drive it .65 seconds faster than the 1LE. I argued back then that a sample size of 1 driver is not enough and that changing drivers could result in completely opposite results. Yet people still argued how the 1LE was the faster car...I'll stick to my argument that they are close enough that it depends on the driver and track that may favor one car over another. What Pobst criticizes on the PP2 GT may be a praise for another driver.

Changing either of those variables (track and driver) can result in a win or loss of either car. 1LE still has one big advantage however for serious track work: cooling. The PP2 GT is still not set up as a true track duty car primarily due to the Torsen over heating. It's more like a light duty or casual setup which is probably what 99% of buyers would even use it for. But there we have it, the magical 1LE trades blows with the PP2 GT. 75W-140 gear oil anyone?

Here is the MT article: https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...t-performance-pack-level-2-first-test-review/

Sounds to me like these are two very fast cars but the GT is more expensive, looks better and over heats the diff just as the GT350 and PP GT did on the track. You would think they would learn to use the diff cooler or heavier gear oil they already have and sell as an upgrade via Ford Performance! But gotta watch that bottom line...

I also recall people saying on the Eagle F1 Supercars were "holding back" the 1LE when I argued they were key to it's handling. It's a custom variant of the tire just for the 1LE, changing to an off the shelf tire can negatively impact that balance and there are even reviews on TireRack of ZL1 1LE owners saying that exact thing.

Guess who is now doing that for Ford on the 2019 GT350's? Michelin was contracted to develope a custom Sport Cup 2 tire with tweaked compounds and tread patterns specifically for the GT350R's chassis tuning. The PP2 GT is just running off the shelf tires, I'd say that's pretty impressive given it's 100 lb pot belly and off the shelf tires. Maybe Pobst, wile a good driver, isn't the end all be all review source people have made him out to be?

There are some advantages of weight in traction force, so maybe that 100 lbs isn't as big of a deal as it's made out to be. Look at the Nissan GTR. It smokes all these RWD muscle cars and weighs 4,000 lbs! Weight matters to a degree, but once you get within 50 lbs at similar power to weight ratios it becomes a non-factor assuming it's in the right areas of the car to avoid upsetting balance. Chassis tuning and tires matter then and how the driver prefers a particular setup. Different strokes for different folks as they say.

If you are at the track and car A has to stop or slow dow after three laps and car B passes it. Then car B is faster even if Car A was slightly faster for one lap.

Also the "non track oriented" (so we didn't bother to have enough cooling) PP2 tires are much more track orentented than the 2017 1LE tested. Something they addressed with the 2019. My money is on the 1LE with equal tires for even a single lap, and over multiple laps it does not need them to win.

And yeah, given how long tires last at the track. Any track rat will be likely running new tires (& likely wheels) soon. So the cars will likely be on equal tires sooner rather than later.

 

[Stuntman]

The 1LE Supercar 3s are direct competitors and just as fast as Michelin's Cup2. They are also much wider.

 

[Laststandard]

The 1LE Supercar 3s are direct competitors and just as fast as Michelin's Cup2. They are also much wider.

PP2 runs 305 all around. 1LE runs 285 / 305

 

[Grintch]

PP2 runs 305 all around. 1LE runs 285 / 305

He's mixing up the ZL1 1LE, that is not a PP2 equivalent car, with the regular SS 1LE which is.

And yes, as I said the 2019 1LE will be running the new sticker SC2 equivalent version of the Goodyears. But the version the 2017 car ran (in Lightning Lap), was more of a MPSS equivalent. Giving the PP2 a healthy advantage (until it over heated the diff) in the Lightning Lap results.

 

[jake_zx2]

And yes, as I said the 2019 1LE will be running the new sticker SC2 equivalent version of the Goodyears. But the version the 2017 car ran (in Lightning Lap), was more of a MPSS equivalent. Giving the PP2 a healthy advantage (until it over heated the diff) in the Lightning Lap results.

The 2019 1LE is running the exact same tires as the 2016-2018. And they are equivalent to the SC2s used on the PP2. The PP2 SC2 is a different compound than the GT350R compound. In fact, they're the off-the-shelf ones that the 1LE guys have tried on their cars instead of their Supercar3s and lost time on a road course. So no, putting SC2s on a 1LE won't make a difference, the PP2 still puts down faster laps

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